Mercedes and BMW Admit They Have Too Many Models, But the Solution Is a Bummer

[Bols]

Sorry but I won't be able to take anyone saying "axe the 4(GC)" serious anymore.. ever.

It's one of the best cars they have.. every time I talk to self proclaimed 'not into BMW' people they always say without exception: "But what about the 4 series though damn I love that one!" (All variants)

For the price, nothing beats the 4GC in it's category!

[MalibuBimmer]

I wish BMW had made the M4GC.

[Nar]

BMW in the past was always known for being simple. Recent years that's gone away and people just aren't as loyal to BMW as they were before.
I work at a BMW dealership and we get so many complaints from customers saying they can't keep up with the models, or they say there is too many different kinds of BMW's that they don't know which one they want.

Small things like taking the M out of M240i will make a noticeable difference. I don't have enough fingers to count how many times customers asked if the M240i is the same as the M2. Sure, most of you reading this will be like "wow i can't believe customers ask that, it's simple" but people with a lot of BMW knowledge make up a very small piece of BMW sales and BMW loyalty.

Hopefully we can go back to how BMW was before. One series number, but all the different body style options.

(I've been waiting for this topic to come out so I could give my rant )

Edit: And although some of you are asking for the 6MT to come back, it probably won't come back in all the models. It will be VERY rare in the 2/3/4 series but that will eventually die off too. Times are changing and we are part of time. I know it sucks, (my past two BMW's were manual) but it is what it is.

[BimmerMat135]

About time! Get rid of the X2, X4, X6, every m-performance and M versions of the X1,X3,X5 we don't need thoses. For the cars get rid of the GT and GC stick with the rest.

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Kill the GT'S! Please for the love of God!

Yeah I can see the convertibles and coupes being more a niche market with sales of those being more popular in those places where they can be used a lot more during the year, such as Southern California.

I personally love the Gran Coupes, especially the 4-Series Gran Coupe. It's an extremely stylish car with lots and lots of utility and practicality. It's got the sexiness of a coupe, the practicality of a 4 door sedan and great utility with its hatch back. I'd say it's even got more utility than a 3-Series because when you fold the rear seats down you have all this space like a Station Wagon , where as on the 3-Series you've got limited space because of the regular trunk.

But now Audi is also coming out with their answer to the 4-Series Gran Coupe, and they've got one model where the 440i Gran Coupe doesn't appeal to me enough, and that is the S5 Sportback. The new S5 Sportback will have more power and have sportier appointments than the 440i Gran Coupe. Such as on the S5 you get bespoke sport seats that are much better than the A5 Sportback. Where as on the 440i Gran Coupe, you only get the same front seats as on the 430i Gran Coupe. Now if BMW made a 6cyl turbo diesel like in the 535d combined with a manual transmission for the 4-Series Gran Coupe, then I'd buy that in a heart beat over the Audi. I would at least say that I would enjoy the 4-Series Gran Coupe way more if they offered it with a 6MT for the American market too.

I do think BMW should make the following changes to these models:

- Kill all GT models

- Offer the new G30 5-Series with a 6MT option

- Diesel engines and manual transmissions for the 4-Series for USA market!

- Why do we need an X1, X2, X3, X3M, X4, X4M40i, X5, X5M, X6, X6M, and X7?!?!?!!! Thinking about all these X-Models hurts my head!

- The new 8-Series will be great, but BMW is going about it all wrong, also by killing the 6-Series. The 8-Series should be ultimate Grand Touring car, with an N6tu based 850i Coupe and Gran Coupe, while the M8 and M8 Gran Coupe should use a derivative of the BMW 760i's Twin Turbo V12 making between 650-700hp and be AWD. BMW Should keep the 6-Series but make it a true sports car that is bigger than the 4-series but smaller than the 5 Series. The next M6 should have been a direct Porsche 911 competitor with a little bit of utility but totally focused on Performance and would use the same engine as the M5. The biggest problem I foresee with the new 8-Series is price. The fully loaded new M8 is probably going to exceed an MSRP of $170,000. That's Audi R8 money. And we all know that the M8 is not going to be lighter than an R8, so it could use more power. Then again, I always said that if BMW ever made an M8 it should be a direct supercar competitor to Audi's R8. Instead people say the i8 is BMW's answer to the Audi R8. Lol!

- BMW needs a Sedan or Gran Coupe with more leg room in the rear than the new G30. Or something that offers more rear leg room in the back between the G30 5-Series and G11 7-Series. BMW makes no such car right now. The rear leg/knee room in the new G30 5-Series isn't great, but stepping up to even buy a 740i is overkill in the rear legroom department. About another inch in the back of the G30 would be ideal.

- Maybe BMW should come up with another Series just for convertibles, just like they did for the Z Roadsters. Kill the 4-Series, 6 Series and possibly 8-Series convertibles. I never understood the concept of an M6 Convertible, it's too heavy be a performance car, and who track's and M6 vert anyways? I think BMW should make a new Series of convertibles that are along the lines of the McLaren 12C Spyder, Audi R8 Spyder, Ferrari 458 Spyder, and Lambo Huracan Spyder. Not necessarily a supercar BMW convertible, but definitely not a huge GT convertible car like the 6-Series Convertible is. BMW could essentially invent a new class of convertible vehicle with a car that has supercar looks, a drop top, and a little bit of utility. Or in other words, a built from the ground-up spyder/convertible car that is bigger and has more utility than the Z4/Z5, and is an anti-amalgamation of an existing Series BMW that is converted to have a drop top. The basis for this new Series convertible however is to not have 4 seats but only 2 seats. Call it the V-Series perhaps with a V6 or V7, or expand on the Z-Series with a Z6, Z7, or Z9.

One problem with the S5....It's a rebadged VW.

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

I would also like to note, SUV's made for almost 50% of sales for BMW last year. The X2,X4 and X6 or any SUV or CUV or SAV isn't going anywhere anytime soon. They get rid of a model, it will be replaced with some sort of utility vehicle.

[Nomana]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

The one model that BMW doesn;'t make, but should, is a Mercedes SL or GT killer. The Z4 and upcoming Z5 are not competitive.

Agree

[scoobysaurus]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

A sensible analysis with a bit too alarmist a slant and perhaps too aggressive a timeline.

No doubt some models will be discontinued in the coming years, but I think it's more than safe to say that lower end four seat coupes and convertibles will remain, including performance models like the BMW's M2 and M4, and Mercedes' C63. Likewise, the AMG GT and legitimate near-exotic sports cars from others (such as Porsche for example) will remain.

What will go? Either the SL or SLK probably won't survive, and arguably both could go if they were to expand the AMG GT down market with a six cylinder model. Either the E or S class coupe could also bow out. For BMW the upcoming 8 Series models may already have killed the two-door 6 Series. And BMW's two new yet-to-debut roadsters - the 'Z5' and i8 Spyder? If they don't catch on I could see both not being asked back for a second round.

Audi seems to be in the best spot in this area. TT, A/S/RS5, and R8 all seem like viable products. Maybe the A3/S3 convertible not so much, but the convertible is really the odd man out in that model lineup anyway.

I always felt that the 6GC should be left as a 4 door sedan to compete with the CLS and A7 even after the 2 door models move to the 8 series. Selling the GC as an 8er invites the possibility of needless comparisons with the lesser CLS and A7 and devalue the 8 series badge.

As far as Merc is concerned, the next gen SL has already been spied with an S-coupe body and there's rumors that it might use the AMG GT's platform to reduce weight and save costs. There's also talk of adding back seats and a coupe version to the next SL. I think the current SL, S coupe/cabriolet and AMG GT will all be replaced by the R233. Apparently it's so radically different to the R230 and R231 that they decided to skip the R232 designation and move on to the R233. The fact that they're taking the GT's platform, introducing a coupe version with back seats and getting rid of the folding hardtop suggests that the resulting vehicle would end up being a direct competitor to the Porsche 911 considering the SL's price range is almost identical to the Porsche at $90k-$215k. The cherry on top is that the R233 is being designed from the ground up by AMG! Merc won't let its most iconic nameplate rot on the vine and wither into oblivion.

[ron_jeremy]

Originally Posted by Delta0311

Get rid of the GTs. Get rid of the 4s. No more 6 sedans. Leave it as it once was. Make BMW great again.

What works in one segment, might not work in another.
The 3GT have seen plenty sucsess in EU, as have the 2 series on the UKL platform.
I'm certain that the big coupes and convertibles will be axed.
Maybe the X4 even?
It makes sense, BMW needs more EV in the line up, A Mini in 2019 and the new X3 in 2020 is not enough imo.

[Nahlem]

Originally Posted by ron_jeremy

What works in one segment, might not work in another.
The 3GT have seen plenty sucsess in EU, as have the 2 series on the UKL platform.
I'm certain that the big coupes and convertibles will be axed.
Maybe the X4 even?
It makes sense, BMW needs more EV in the line up, A Mini in 2019 and the new X3 in 2020 is not enough imo.

schhh don't talk about EV's on the BMW forums people here don't believe in global warming and still want's V8s and V12s don't break their bubble !!

But on a more serious note yes BMW needs to step up their game on the EV market if they are serious about competing in the future especially when regulations are getting tougher for each day and now even towns are forbidding diesel cars from entering they really need to switch it up a bit more.

I would love to own a M3 Hybrid with maybe 100-150 km EV range for daily commute then being able to use the rest of the power in combinations with the EV engine for when i want to have some fun.

As they say people with EV Range anxiety are often those who don't even own a EV car, and shouting from the benches EV range is to short petrol and diesel are better even when for most but not all people their daily commute is around 10-50 km back and forth to work (at least in Sweden for most part people live "close" to their work and don't travel between 2-4 hours a day to get to work and back) :-)

-

But when it comes to chopping models maybe BMW should start a so called sister company where cars like the 2er active tourer and GT car fits with a new design element they would then still be getting revenue for those cars but they would be called something else even though they are the same and the wonderful die hard BMW fans would get "THEIR" company back as it was 20 years ago

Maybe a possible future lineup, The rest moved to a sister company still BMW cars but under a new name, And everyone is happy

[e92_m3]

Tbh, BMW was fine with the M3 name in the lineup. Then all of a sudden when the F80 arrived, BMW decided to follow Audi by adding another name for the M3's coupe counterpart, the M4.

BMW should have stayed with the M3 name, which is M3 coupe, M3 sedan, and M3 convertible. It was like that with the e92, e90, and e93.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alden_88M

schhh don't talk about EV's on the BMW forums people here don't believe in global warming and still want's V8s and V12s don't break their bubble !!

But on a more serious note yes BMW needs to step up their game on the EV market if they are serious about competing in the future especially when regulations are getting tougher for each day and now even towns are forbidding diesel cars from entering they really need to switch it up a bit more.

I would love to own a M3 Hybrid with maybe 100-150 km EV range for daily commute then being able to use the rest of the power in combinations with the EV engine for when i want to have some fun.

As they say people with EV Range anxiety are often those who don't even own a EV car, and shouting from the benches EV range is to short petrol and diesel are better even when for most but not all people their daily commute is around 10-50 km back and forth to work (at least in Sweden for most part people live "close" to their work and don't travel between 2-4 hours a day to get to work and back) :-)

-

But when it comes to chopping models maybe BMW should start a so called sister company where cars like the 2er active tourer and GT car fits with a new design element they would then still be getting revenue for those cars but they would be called something else even though they are the same and the wonderful die hard BMW fans would get "THEIR" company back as it was 20 years ago

Maybe a possible future lineup, The rest moved to a sister company still BMW cars but under a new name, And everyone is happy

[IMG]https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net...d2&oe=592E12AB[/IMG]

Funny you write "[fuel economy] regulations are getting tougher everyday." Literally just a day ago there was a big story in the news about how we should expect an announcement next week regarding automotive fuel economy regulations being scaled back...

https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.re.../idUSKBN16M2C5

Regulations aren't chiseled in stone. We can change them by changing the people we put in charge of the regulations.

[Nahlem]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Funny you write "[fuel economy] regulations are getting tougher everyday." Literally just a day ago there was a big story in the news about how we should expect an announcement next week regarding automotive fuel economy regulations being scaled back...

https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.re.../idUSKBN16M2C5

Regulations aren't chiseled in stone. We can change them by changing the people we put in charge of the regulations.

True you can change regulations to suit it better for your self and your conscience, but you still can't change the fact, what damage burning fossil fuels does towards the enivorment and so on.

So changing regulations to make it easier for fossil fuel driven cars to survive well that is kinda a step backwards but that's my opinion on that.

For me the internal combustion engine has run its course in its pure form so to speak, The most obvious choice is to produce hybrid performance cars witch is a combination of both worlds, Considering the biggest release of emissions (when it comes to cars) comes from the so called daily driving to work, stores, soccer practice etc.... where the engine doesn't get up to proper working temperatures especially during the winter months and is then more damaging to the enivorment.

So then a hybrid is the smartest choice where you can use your electric engine for all those parts and then when you want to have some fun you turn on the combustion engine and floor it and have some fun, Instead of turning on and off the combustion engine several times a day without getting the engine to proper working temperatures witch is also to be fair damaging to the engine, So instead you maybe switch to the combustion engine once a day for fun or when you are heading for the track or so.

[clbmw]

If it were me I'd go back to basics,


- In the 80s sports cars were things the rich had, not things equivalent in price to a family car that no one who has anything more than a handbag would buy. Reposition the sports cars as super cars and make them large profit margin, high performance willy waving cars. Pair up with another manufacturer to reduce cost.

- Make practical versions of the best new mainstay cars ... so I'd like to see an M3 and M5 tourer and 340e and 540e tourer more than I'm interested in a 4 convertible. Cars that should wipe the floor with the Audi competition. Cut the number of GTs and hatchback cars except the 1er.

- Explore mild hybrid options

- Stop making huge coupes that weigh too much. Plough the money into proper 100k plus proper sports car/super car segment (and I don't mean 3 cylinders - there's no tax advantage now any way).

- Keep plugging the SUV market because some people love them and use the profit to bolster standard equipment throughout the range.

- Stop being so stingy with equipment. You can get self driving assistance on Seat Leon, Golf and A3 but it's rocking horse shit on a 335d. LED headlights only just became standard on 335d.

But hey what do I know

[Inablur]

Kill the 2 active tourer, 3 GT, 5 GT, upcoming x7, X4, X1 and maybe the X6 too... forget the z5 and bring back a fixed roof z3/z4 coupe with a M variant and introduce an M halo sports/super car. Also leave the FWD platforms to your mini sub brand.

And stop making your cars so damn big each gen for fuksakes. The 5 series is now a 7er and the 7 series is a land yacht.

Kthanxbye...

[EggFreak]

m2/m340i manual are only new bmws i will get next when lease is up. if i save up enough to get one,tho steering kinda sucked if not then i'm buying used e92/e82 keeping it as long as i can.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

As an example with Gran Coupe, Gran Turismo and X4 we have three similar vehicles but with varying ride heights.

Now that the next 4er is more distinctive than the next generation 3er.

I hope we finally see true model separation this time.

The Gran Coupe can now be a four door allowing for further variation from the standard 3er.

Also good news. Not that I had a problem with the hatchback, but the GT can take that role.

The Gran Turismo can keep the elements that make it popular but abandon the coupe appearance for a shallower glasshouse and more dynamic roofline from a shooting brake.

Hopefully this means it will look more wagon-like.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

BMW's Z4 was compromised when it went from soft top to hard top convertible as well not updating the whole car years ago. It has lost it's fan base and may never get them back to numbers it once had.

They jacked up the price, watered down the driving dynamics, and switched to a hard top. Basically they turned it into a cruiser and lost its customer base who wanted none of that. The E89 was the first BMW in a long line of dynamically-mediocre redesigns (F10, F30, etc.)

[spuntyb]

I thought this was an Onion article

[kozzi]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

- Why do we need an X1, X2, X3, X3M, X4, X4M40i, X5, X5M, X6, X6M, and X7?!?!?!!! Thinking about all these X-Models hurts my head!

Because they make MONEY and that should never hurt.

BTW, you forgot the X3 M40i, X4M and the X7M.

Originally Posted by CalCarNut

All you 4GC haters

Drop the 3 series with the exception of the M3 as the GC is more versatile. Keep the 4 coupe and M4. The 5 and 7 gives you a trunk if desired. Kill the GT series. Want a Truck, Get the X series (not that they need the whole cornucopia of them.) X1, X3, X5, X5M. We don't need X3Ms etc. Come out with a genuine 911 competitor. Call it a day.

Thinking that way, why not drop the M3 and make a M4 GC? NOPE...can't kill the icon. How about we keep the M3 and make a M4 GC? SWEET! Well wait...that's not really removing anything. How about make a M4 GC and call it an M3? This could happen in a single 7 year life cycle. IMO...this is the direction they will be heading in...keeping the 3er 4 doors and the 4er 2 doors.

My head hurts...are they making any money?

You may not need an X3M, but I do and there is a huge market which again = MONEY.

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Did you guys read the article? The entire point was cars like the GC are successes and that it was difficult to have coupes and roadsters work financially. Seems misguided to suggest killing vehicles that sell well.
Jus sayin'

+1
AND they will actually be ADDING new models for at least 2 life cycles. That's @ 14 years folks.



IMO what will happen is the something similar to this:
The 4 series GC will be come the 3 series 4 door...in like 14 years.

[BMW F22]

A year or two ago I saw the trend that BMW was on and had my doubts. Since then I always told people that BMW is going the route of American auto makers of yesteryear by offering too mang lines with little distinction between them. Not exactly sure what their strategy is but having too many lines and making them so affordable (for the lower end models) will make BMWs such a common commodity that will come back and bite them.

As such, I have been wishing that they would narrow down their offerings. It keeps things simple for consumers and also allows BMW to focus on making great vehicles again. When a company spreads itself across too many of the same thing, it puts itself at risk. I mean, even though I am knowledgeable about BMW, I do find myself overwhelmed by the amount of models BMW has:2,3,4,5,6,7,8(upcoming),X1,X2(upcoming),X3,X4, X5,X6,X7(upcoming),M2,M3,M4,M5,M6,M7(?),i3,i5(?),i 8, and different variants within each of those product lines. It's way too much and they really, really should narrow it down and make it a more focused company.

IMO they should have the followings:
1/2 series: small compact series offering coupe and sedans (or GC
3: iconic so can't get rid of it; offering somewhat compact sedans and coupes (I don't know if we can call it compact)
5: mid size
6/8: grand touring coupes and G
7: full size executive saloons
X1: small compact SAV
X2: this is a maybe if there's enough differentiation
X3: maybe combine with X2 line
X5: mid size SAV, probably should offer regular and "coupe" version
X7: full size SAV
Ms: keep them as they are or combine 3 & 4
I: keep them as they are

[ouengineer]

Originally Posted by Bols

Sorry but I won't be able to take anyone saying "axe the 4(GC)" serious anymore.. ever.

It's one of the best cars they have.. every time I talk to self proclaimed 'not into BMW' people they always say without exception: "But what about the 4 series though damn I love that one!" (All variants)

For the price, nothing beats the 4GC in it's category!

Yep. The 4GC is by far the best body style BMW makes right now. The 6GC misses the mark big time with no hatchback and usable rear seats (the console going straight into the middle seat? really?).

My next car will likely be a 4GC, an Audi S5 Sportback or S7. The four door coupe styling with a hatchback for practicality is the next best thing to a wagon.