BMW survey: Future of the manual transmission

[SanchoDivine]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Move the MT shifter to the steering column and make the transmission a three speed with no synchomesh in 1st gear`

Joke about it but if the argument is on performance, a computer will perform significantly better than a human and thus the transmission of the future will be automatic without the paddle shifters. Eventually cars will drive themselves and companies may be competing for "the ultimate riding machine"

[fullstack]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Most F1 drivers and many drivers in the various sports car series such as IMSA left foot brake. They apparently feel that not only does it speed up reaction time it makes it easier to control weight transfer and contact patch management. It also allows them to keep both hands on the wheel.

I have asked a number of pro racers their opinion to two pedal, paddle shifted transmission and the usual answer is "I am interested in anything that makes the car faster". The object of racing is to win, not to have the most fun.

I totally agree with you on what you're saying but when I wrote of sport, I meant the fun of sport.

Some people play baseball professionally to increase stats but most people who play baseball play for fun. Who sets the limit on what is not allowed to "[make] the car faster"? In major league, batters are not allowed to use aluminum bats. Why not? If everyone were to use aluminum bats then it wouldn't be an unfair advantage right? It's because every hit would be a homerun and thus take out some aspects of the game that make the overall game more fun. The dct is the aluminum bat but the key difference is that the transmission doesn't change the way spectators who pay to watch the sport view the sport.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by iamwingman

He mentioned proficiency. Inidicating a level of difficulty involved. And if you manual or bust guys want to feel connected to your cars, why not try driving an un-synchronized manual.?But, as I said, driving a stick is not hard to do. The stick only people act as if it is some accomplishment to drive one.

Why not drive a Fred Flinstone car using your feet to feel connected to the road by your logic...

[Maynard]

Part of the underlying problem here is that the industry has gradually shifted away from 'driver's cars' into 'ultimate performance'. The slavish chase for the best numbers has taken the place of the more esoteric 'feel' of the car, and we have reached a point where there are at least a dozen different c options that are all well beyond the threshold for appreciation (i.e. beyond a certain point, I don't think you really appreciate the difference). I think that the car mags are slowly getting this (they seem to be chasing 'fun' vehicles like off road trucks and motorcycles more than sports cars, which I take as a sign of boredom with 'just another 200mph sport coupe').

I think the tack to take in this is to frame the MT like the convertible - it isn't about making the car perform better, it is an essential qualitative aspect, part of the car's character or style that really can't be replaced. If the conversation keeps getting back to which one gives better performance, you've already lost. It's better driving that you are really after - bonus is that this type of goal is cheaper for the manufacturers to aim for, and more likely to be a durable hit for them, since they won't be 'dethroned' the minute a higher-HP model comes out. They will, however, need consistent feedback that the enthusiast community isn't so preoccupied with 0-60 times and HP values.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by SanchoDivine

Joke about it but if the argument is on performance, a computer will perform significantly better than a human and thus the transmission of the future will be automatic without the paddle shifters. Eventually cars will drive themselves and companies may be competing "the ultimate riding machine"

And ceramic disk brakes will outperform drum brakes and make it unnecessary to downshift to slow down, and synchromesh manual transmissions make it unnecessary to double clutch, and anti-lock brakes make you less likely to skid as does stability control, etc. Race car technology progresses and as it does it still takes intense concentration a skilled driver to push a car to the limits and win races.

There is a lot more to high performance driving than pushing in a clutch pedal to shift gears. It is up to the driver to stay on the racing line, select braking points and determine how hard to brake, execute passes, keep the car at the limits of adhesion when cornering, manage weight transfer, search for grip when track conditions are not idea, manage tire wear and fuel consumption, etc.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by 3rdPedalAddict

I totally agree with you on what you're saying but when I wrote of sport, I meant the fun of sport.

Some people play baseball professionally to increase stats but most people who play baseball play for fun. Who sets the limit on what is not allowed to "[make] the car faster"? In major league, batters are not allowed to use aluminum bats. Why not? If everyone were to use aluminum bats then it wouldn't be an unfair advantage right? It's because every hit would be a homerun and thus take out some aspects of the game that make the overall game more fun. The dct is the aluminum bat but the key difference is that the transmission doesn't change the way spectators who pay to watch the sport view the sport.

The answer to that question is the sanctioning body for that particular race series whether it is the FIA, Indycar, Nascar, SCCA, etc. A good read on the subject is "The Unfair Advantage" by Mark Donohue. It has been out of print for years but is a great look into racing by someone who was a great driver and a brilliant engineer.

[SanchoDivine]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

And ceramic disk brakes will outperform drum brakes and make it unnecessary to downshift to slow down, and synchromesh manual transmissions make it unnecessary to double clutch, and anti-lock brakes make you less likely to skid as does stability control, etc. Race car technology progresses and as it does it still takes intense concentration a skilled driver to push a car to the limits and win races.

There is a lot more to high performance driving than pushing in a clutch pedal to shift gears,

Are you just posting to try to try to create an argument? You took a stance about people picking DCT because of performance and not because people lack skill in manual but then when DCT is compared to automatic, you get defensive and go out in left field.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by SanchoDivine

Are you just posting to try to try to create an argument? You took a stance about people picking DCT because of performance and not because people lack skill in manual but then when DCT is compared to automatic, you get defensive and go out in left field.

I don't know where you got the idea that I was offended when a DCT was compared to an automatic. I believe I stated that a DCT is an automatic and that the ZF 8 Speed gives it a good run for the money in terms of performance and shifting speed. I am perfectly happy with the DCT and if I had purchased an MT I am sure I would have been just as happy with it. I am also fine with the Tiptronic in my Porsche Cayman GTS and the MTs my Spec Miata and my Cobra.

I picked a DCT because I had driven one and I liked driving it. The slight increase in real world performance is not that important to me as I have no illusions about an M4 being a race car.

What I did say is that there are highly skilled drivers who are experts at driving manual transmissions who prefer the DCT. And I also stated that eliminating a manual clutch does not make a car "Drive Itself".

[RichR]

I wasn't surveyed but, I'm sure you can guess where I stand on the issue.

(Does anyone here know the production date for the last manual transmission F10 for the U.S. market?)

[fullstack]

I see your point but there are some holes in your argument:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

And ceramic disk brakes will outperform drum brakes and make it unnecessary to downshift to slow down,

Better brakes allow you to start braking later and start accelerating sooner. Downshifting is not to shed speed but to match the torque to maintain traction and to make sure you're in the proper gear to accelerate when it's time.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

, and synchromesh manual transmissions make it unnecessary to double clutch, and anti-lock brakes make you less likely to skid as does stability control, etc.

All of these 'aids' do not take away from what has to be done but require a different use of the mechanics and bring into play a different aspect that needs to be controlled. Having proper braking skills is still required with these aids.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Race car technology progresses and as it does it still takes intense concentration a skilled driver to push a car to the limits and win races.

As does technology with all sports. But at what point does it take away from the initial skill set requirements?

Originally Posted by captainaudio

There is a lot more to high performance driving than pushing in a clutch pedal to shift gears,

Yes. But apparently one less thing if you don't have to worry about modulating a clutch.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by RichR

I wasn't surveyed but, I'm sure you can guess where I stand on the issue.

(Does anyone here know the production date for the last manual transmission F10 for the U.S. market?)

I suspect that BMW will continue to offer the MT in the M Models for the foreseeable future and possibly also in the 3 and 4 series unless that take rate drops to next to nothing.

I personally hope they do continue as I may decide to get an MT if I get another M4 next year when it becomes time to replace my current M4. Part of my motivation would be so that I don't feel that I got the same car I just had.
If I get a Corvette or a Porsche Cayman next I will definitely get an MT.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by 3rdPedalAddict

I see your point but there are some holes in your argument:



Better brakes allow you to start braking later and start accelerating sooner. Downshifting is not to shed speed but to match the torque to maintain traction and to make sure you're in the proper gear to accelerate when it's time.



All of these 'aids' do not take away from what has to be done but require a different use of the mechanics and bring into play a different aspect that needs to be controlled. Having proper braking skills is still required with these aids.


As does technology with all sports. But at what point does it take away from the initial skill set requirements?



Yes. But apparently one less thing if you don't have to worry about modulating a clutch.

If your brakes are strong enough to lock up the wheels stronger brakes will not reduce stopping distance as that is determined by the grip of the tires. What you want are brakes that will not fade under heavy use. I was referring to when cars had drum brakes that would overheat and fade under heavy use and race drivers would downshift to use engine braking to slow the car and avoid fading the brakes. Vintage racers still use this technique which is of course an obsolete technique in a modern vehicle. So if by better brakes you mean brakes that resist overheating or fade I agree.

Since we are apparently talking about amateur drivers driving on the street I will stand by my statement on anti-lock brakes. Braking technique is certainly an important skill for any driver but since the anti-lock feature can not be disabled the best method of panic stopping is to jam on the brakes and let the anti-lock brakes do their thing. A skilled driver with out anti-lock brakes will be able to outperform andi-lock brakes but on out cars turning off the anti-lock feature is not an option . In a race car that does not have anti-lock brakes braking skill is particularly important and a driver needs to know how to threshold brake and trail brake (although you can certainly trail brake with anti-lock brakes)

What the elimination of the third pedal had down is allow drivers to modify their technique (left foot braking for example) and concentrate on other aspects of driving.

I would venture that if you had two races with the same pro drivers in spec cars that were identical between the two races with the exception that in one race the cars were MTs and in the other race the cars had paddle shifters the results of the two races would probably be similar.

In my experience shifting an MT was one of the easiest aspects of track driving to master. Threshold braking, keeping on the race line, trail brake rotation, weight management, maximizing corner speed and other areas were much more difficult, On my home track (Lime Rock) there is actually very few gear changes as if you are doing it right you are almost always going flat out.

So for the most part I agree with you with a few qualifications.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

The BMW Board of Drivers is a mechanism BMW marketing uses to drive online conversations and establish a dialog between their product teams and customers. It essentially contributes to their overall "voice of the customer" decision factor.

It's also used to pretend they give a shit about what you think, and that you had a say, before they do whatever the fuck they were always going to do anyway.

While I was reading your first paragraph, my mind was thinking what you wrote in your second paragraph.

If there's one think that we can count on BMW doing, its ignoring feedback from the customer. I suppose they think they can't please everybody anyway, so why not set their own direction. In general, that strategy works pretty well for them.

[captainaudio]

I, and I am sure everyone else here, am going to equip my car the way I want it equipped with little regard for whether BMW will stop offering a feature I did not order.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

While I was reading your first paragraph, my mind was thinking what you wrote in your second paragraph.

If there's one think that we can count on BMW doing, its ignoring feedback from the customer. I suppose they think they can't please everybody anyway, so why not set their own direction. In general, that strategy works pretty well for them.

Are they ignoring feedback from the customer?

If fewer and fewer buyers are opting for the MT I would consider that feedback from the customers. For the past few years BMW has been the best selling so called "Luxury" brand so they must be pleasing someone. It may not be you or me or many of the posters here but we do not represent the mass market and BMW has become a mass market brand.

I am sure most of the people here are going to buy the car they want with little concern over whether BMW will stop offering a particular option that they are not interested in.

[frankiebones]

anyway you slice this, this survey marks the End Of Days...

Repent! The End if Nigh!

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Are they ignoring feedback from the customer?

If fewer and fewer buyers are opting for the MT I would consider that feedback from the customers. For the past few years BMW has been the best selling so called "Luxury" brand so they must be pleasing someone. It may not be you or me or many of the posters here but we do not represent the mass market and BMW has become a mass market car.

That's a great question. One of the reasons MT sales have diminished is that automatic transmission have gone from horrible to exceptional in a few short years. I'm driving AT now because they are so good, not because I don't still love MT. There is still a core group of car enthusiasts who will always prefer MT, regardless of how good AT's get. The question is, will BMW give those car enthusiasts an MT option. The phasing out of MT may be more about efficiency and compatibility with crash avoidance/auto driving strategy. Otherwise, why wouldn't BMW offer MT as an option and simply price it to cover whatever incremental costs they incur for carrying a low volume part.

[fullstack]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

That's a great question. One of the reasons MT sales have diminished is that automatic transmission have gone from horrible to exceptional in a few short years. I'm driving AT now because they are so good, not because I don't still love MT. There is still a core group of car enthusiasts who will always prefer MT, regardless of how good AT's get. The question is, will BMW give those car enthusiasts an MT option. The phasing out of MT may be more about efficiency and compatibility with crash avoidance/auto driving strategy. Otherwise, why wouldn't BMW offer MT as an option and simply price it to cover whatever incremental costs they incur for carrying a low volume part.

My guess would be that it has something to do with the fact that transmissions are not built in-house. I think technology is moving towards higher gears and engines and drivetrains are being optimized for the higher number of gears thus increasing the gap in fuel efficiency and performance between the transmission with more gears and the transmission with less gears. Unless bmw develops a new manual transmission, this gap is probably going to be too large very soon.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by 3rdPedalAddict

My guess would be that it has something to do with the fact that transmissions are not built in-house. I think technology is moving towards higher gears and engines and drivetrains are being optimized for the higher number of gears thus increasing the gap in fuel efficiency and performance between the transmission with more gears and the transmission with less gears. Unless bmw develops a new manual transmission, this gap is probably going to be too large very soon.

That's a great point. It's interesting that one of the things that makes the 8AT in my 328 so great is it is so efficient and so responsive and always seems to know what gear to be in without any drama. Even with my lowly N20, I leave a stop light and give a normal amount of gas pedal and all of a sudden I'm a block ahead of the cars that left the stop light next to me; all without any sense of acceleration. It sort of takes the fun out of it. The lack of gap between gears takes away the feeling of acceleration. I've always wondered what would it feel like if you could skip 2, 4, and 6 gears as mode to get something closer resembling the gearing of a MT. You many not get there as fast or as efficient, but maybe it would feel faster and more dramatic.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

That's a great point. It's interesting that one of the things that makes the 8AT in my 328 so great is it is so efficient and so responsive and always seems to know what gear to be in without any drama. Even with my lowly N20, I leave a stop light and give a normal amount of gas pedal and all of a sudden I'm a block ahead of the cars that left the stop light next to me; all without any sense of acceleration. It sort of takes the fun out of it. The lack of gap between gears takes away the feeling of acceleration. I've always wondered what would it feel like if you could skip 2, 4, and 6 gears as mode to get something closer resembling the gearing of a MT. You many not get there as fast or as efficient, but maybe it would feel faster and more dramatic.

I know a guy who is a driving coach for Ferrari. He told me that Ferrari re-programed the DCT in some of their cars because customers were complaining that it was "too smooth" and they wanted to feel a "kick" when it shifted. Apparently to them the illusion of performance was more important than actual performance.

[RichR]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I suspect that BMW will continue to offer the MT in the M Models for the foreseeable future...

I believe I read in the latest issue of Motor Trend that the F90 M5 will not.

And that echoes what this story said over a year ago.

But, I'm sure the smaller cars will offer a manual for at least a few more years. I certainly hope so.

[David70]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Are they ignoring feedback from the customer?

If fewer and fewer buyers are opting for the MT I would consider that feedback from the customers. For the past few years BMW has been the best selling so called "Luxury" brand so they must be pleasing someone. It may not be you or me or many of the posters here but we do not represent the mass market and BMW has become a mass market brand.

I am sure most of the people here are going to buy the car they want with little concern over whether BMW will stop offering a particular option that they are not interested in.

Agree, we can take endless surveys and talk to death on the forums about the love of the manual but the end of the manual transmission will come when the people buying them are so few that it doesn't make good business sense to offer them. Enthusiasts will then complain about Corporate BMW and how they don't care about the buyers anymore when the truth is the buyers at that point will no longer care about manual transmissions in significant enough number to matter.

I hope to forever have a manual but not in my daily driver and instead in my weekend car. I will never buy a new car as my weekend car so I understand that my love of the manual really doesn't matter to the manufacturer (the guy that will only buy used but then complain new cars don't have what he wants).