Ketogenic Diet

[antych]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

Wrong information? I'll challenge that. Find one post in this thread from me that doesn't have a scientific basis. You may disagree with it (and some of it may be contested) but none of it is false (including my comment about sugar but I chose not to debate it).

"The body does need sugar to function properly", "potentially damages his heart", "isn't great for his kidneys and liver"

Sure you chose not to debate it, because you know it's false. You think you deserve to mock me, I think you deserve to be called stupid if that's your reaction to being corrected on facts.

[Sambuca1]

I've been following a strict low/no carb keto type diet for a while now....my findings so far: I have lost weight, I feel great, I have lots of energy, my sense of taste has really sharpened, I'm enjoying cooking lots of different foods. I feel.....healthy!

I'm not eating blocks of butter and bacon, like some of you seem to think keto diet is based on, but I have stopped drinking alcohol and reduced my overall caloric intake. So whether my success so far is due to this or the fact I'm eating cheese and mayo constantly, whow knows? I think I'm gonna stick with it though thanks :-)

[antych]

Originally Posted by csu87

funny you mention the Reddit Keto Faq... Maybe you should read it.

Not even 1/10th of the way down the page "keeping protein intake moderate, 0.69 to 1.2 grams per pound lean body mass. (1.5 to 2.64 grams per kg lean body mass.) - Note that going over 0.8 grams is only suggested for people doing heavy lifting and endurance training." (I said .6 to 1.2g/lb when you told me I was making things up...)

and your math is off as well. It is widely accepted that there are approximately 4 calories per gram of protein. Someone eating 500 grams of protein a day is getting a minimum of 2k calories from just protein. Phil Heaths typical daily consumption = "One day’s total consumption: 9394 calories, 910 g protein, 881 g carbs, 239 g" or 3640 calories from protein = 39%. http://workouttrends.com/mr-olympia-...t-routine-diet

average lean body mass of in shape Adult Male in the US is ~160lbs, or 110.4g of protein on the low end of this recommendation and 192g on the high end. Take a typical caloric intake of 2500 and the 4 calories per gram of protein formula, and you are looking at 18% on the low end, and 31% on the high end of just that one recommendation.

Yes, I messed the math a bit (used 3kcal/g), but it's a moot point. 375g or 500g protein a day is still a lot more than any normal person needs, even those building muscle (pushing 3000kcal/day). I apologise for the mistake.

You made things up, because there is no such thing as protein intake recommendation for keto, apart from "don't eat too much of it, so it doesn't take you out of ketosis through gluconeogenesis". Keto simply doesn't have protein requirements, but it's a VERY high fat, VERY low carb diet, which usually pushes protein intake into 15-20% range.

I don't know where you got 160lbs lean mass from. You realise that's your body mass minus fat? Your average in shape adult male in US would have to be 7ft tall. It's going to be more like 120lbs, which is 13-23% of calories from protein on 2500 RDI based on reddit FAQ. This will vary from person to person, but it's in line with 15-20% range, which is a common guideline. This time you got your math wrong.

Bottom line, keto is anything but a high protein diet. The reason you couldn't find it is, because keto is not about protein, and there is no such recommendation. Implying that it is and will damage your kidneys is pure fabrication.

[JohnnyCanuck]

Originally Posted by antych

"The body does need sugar to function properly", "potentially damages his heart", "isn't great for his kidneys and liver"

Sure you chose not to debate it, because you know it's false. You think you deserve to mock me, I think you deserve to be called stupid if that's your reaction to being corrected on facts.

Actually, I stand by all of that. It's not mocking you (although you seem to be overly sensitive). The body does need some sugar to function optimally. Source of that sugar is an entirely different discussion (dairy or carbsfor example).

As for the risks of a keto diet, there is plenty of literature to support all of my comments. You can point out alternative studies and believe differently, but there are plenty of articles and studies which raise these concerns.

The bottom line is that you have drunk gallons of the keto koolaid and are unwilling to tolerate even the mildest question about your belief in the diet. I already know you'll respond with another personal attack so this is my last post in this thread.

[csu87]

Originally Posted by antych

Yes, I messed the math a bit (used 3kcal/g), but it's a moot point. 375g or 500g protein a day is still a lot more than any normal person needs, even those building muscle (pushing 3000kcal/day). I apologise for the mistake.

You made things up, because there is no such thing as protein intake recommendation for keto, apart from "don't eat too much of it, so it doesn't take you out of ketosis through gluconeogenesis". Keto simply doesn't have protein requirements, but it's a VERY high fat, VERY low carb diet, which usually pushes protein intake into 15-20% range.

I don't know where you got 160lbs lean mass from. You realise that's your body mass minus fat? Your average in shape adult male in US would have to be 7ft tall. It's going to be more like 120lbs, which is 13-23% of calories from protein on 2500 RDI based on reddit FAQ. This will vary from person to person, but it's in line with 15-20% range, which is a common guideline. This time you got your math wrong.

Bottom line, keto is anything but a high protein diet. The reason you couldn't find it is, because keto is not about protein, and there is no such recommendation. Implying that it is and will damage your kidneys is pure fabrication.

The thing is, I was able to find recommendations for protein intake from almost every source I went to. The only place that protein intake wasnt even mentioned was in Stephen's 1983 trial.

The 160lb lean body mass is taken from the Average Weight of an US Male is 196lbs and average body fat percentage is 18%, so that is what I went with. It is also right about where my measurements come out to.

As to the point of protein, generally the foods found in Keto diets are protein packed foods (meats). Even Bacon, which is the preferred food of every Keto'er i know, has an almost 1:1 ratio of fatrotein.

Will say Keto Flu is real though. been ketoing since friday and not even close to feeling 100%. My gym experience yesterday made me feel like i was gonna die.

[antych]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

Actually, I stand by all of that. It's not mocking you (although you seem to be overly sensitive). The body does need some sugar to function optimally. Source of that sugar is an entirely different discussion (dairy or carbsfor example).

As for the risks of a keto diet, there is plenty of literature to support all of my comments. You can point out alternative studies and believe differently, but there are plenty of articles and studies which raise these concerns.

The bottom line is that you have drunk gallons of the keto koolaid and are unwilling to tolerate even the mildest question about your belief in the diet. I already know you'll respond with another personal attack so this is my last post in this thread.

There's plenty of literature to support it, but you conveniently didn't provide any sources...

This is where your problem is, you think it's about "belief". You state your beliefs, I respond with scientific facts, you get butthurt.

You went from "body does need sugar to function properly." to "body does need some sugar to function optimally". At least your beliefs are changing gradually towards scientific truth, which is your body doesn't need sugar at all, because of gluconeogenesis. This is facts, science, biology. Learn it. And I really hope this is your last post in this thread, so I don't have to repeat myself. You can challenge me with facts and studies, I'm not here to debate your religious beliefs.

[antych]

Originally Posted by csu87

The thing is, I was able to find recommendations for protein intake from almost every source I went to. The only place that protein intake wasnt even mentioned was in Stephen's 1983 trial.

The 160lb lean body mass is taken from the Average Weight of an US Male is 196lbs and average body fat percentage is 18%, so that is what I went with. It is also right about where my measurements come out to.

As to the point of protein, generally the foods found in Keto diets are protein packed foods (meats). Even Bacon, which is the preferred food of every Keto'er i know, has an almost 1:1 ratio of fatrotein.

Will say Keto Flu is real though. been ketoing since friday and not even close to feeling 100%. My gym experience yesterday made me feel like i was gonna die.

The average might be 196lbs, but there's no way they have 18% of body fat. Just look around for a lean person and check their weight. Dunno what you guys are made of, but lean people I see around are 130-165lbs and still carrying about 20% body fat. 196lb/18% would make an average american look like a bodybuilder.

Yes it's typically meat, but all it takes is few spoons of fat on top of your veggies to get into the right macros, because it packs so many calories. I also wouldn't say bacon is preferred, since it's processed meat and lot less healthy than fresh meat with some added olive or coconut oil.

[csu87]

Originally Posted by antych

The average might be 196lbs, but there's no way they have 18% of body fat. Just look around for a lean person and check their weight. Dunno what you guys are made of, but lean people I see around are 130-165lbs and still carrying about 20% body fat. 196lb/18% would make an average american look like a bodybuilder.

Yes it's typically meat, but all it takes is few spoons of fat on top of your veggies to get into the right macros, because it packs so many calories. I also wouldn't say bacon is preferred, since it's processed meat and lot less healthy than fresh meat with some added olive or coconut oil.

The people i hang out with must seem like giants to you. I'm one of the smaller guys at 200-205 with 15% +/- a few percentage points at 5-9

[antych]

Originally Posted by csu87

The people i hang out with must seem like giants to you. I'm one of the smaller guys at 200-205 with 15% +/- a few percentage points at 5-9

5'9 205lbs puts you into "obese" part of the BMI charts. If you have 15% body fat, that makes a very successful bodybuilder. I was talking about normal people on the street, not the ones at the gym.

[csu87]

Originally Posted by antych

5'9 205lbs puts you into "obese" part of the BMI charts. If you have 15% body fat, that makes a very successful bodybuilder. I was talking about normal people on the street, not the ones at the gym.

That's why the BMI chart isn't used in the medical community.

And the body builders that compete, are in the single digits. I'm just a guy that's been lifting for years

[antych]

Originally Posted by csu87

That's why the BMI chart isn't used in the medical community.

And the body builders that compete, are in the single digits. I'm just a guy that's been lifting for years

It is used, unfortunately not for what it was intended. It was designed for population studies not judging individuals. So if we take your claimed 196lbs and average height of men in US of 5'9.5", that's BMI of 28.7 which is borderline obese. It clearly shows that number was completely wrong and should be around 145lbs instead. This is actually something that BMI is good for.

Where did you get 15% from btw?

[Kick 6]

Of course one diet is not beneficial for everyone, but I'll leave this here for everyone to think about. It is directly from the literature as I was researching GI bacteria.

A diet high in fat derived from milk increases Firmicutes like Bilophila wadsworthia and they have a disruptive effect on our immune system through Th1.

A diet high in fat or high in beef increases Firmicutes like Erysiperlotrichaceae and Bacteroides fragilis. Erysiperlotrichaceae are tied to IgA reactions, TNF alpha, and are immunogenic. They are also enriched in colorectal cancer, IBD, and Crohn's Disease.

A high fat diet with low fiber decreases butyrate producing bacteria and increases hydrogen sulfide producing bacteria. This decreases short chain fatty acids and increases secondary bile acids like LCA and DCA. A LCA/DCA ratio over 1 is associated with increased risk of gallstones, breast cancer, and colorectal cancer.

No one diet is for everyone, but knowing how our food causes bacterial changes to our microbiome is important for long term health.

[chassis]

@Kick 6 can you dumb it down a little please? What’s the takeaway relative to the OP?

[King Rudi]

Wow, you guys seem to really know what you're talking about.

[unluky]

I was a 20-25 pound yearly weight swinger my whole life till I found the "atkins" or whatever you want to call it when I was about 40. I used to think "Damn, if I could get to 190, I'd be RIPPED" like most that lie to themselves. Well - I wasn't. Nor at 185, 180, 175, 170. We lie to ourselves and say "BMI chart is BULLSHIT!" It's not.

I didn't like the Atkins, but I used it to find what worked and did not work for me. Now I hang around 165-170 and as long as I simply avoid the easily avoided carbs - my weight takes care of itself. I wish I would have known this in my 20's when I really was in pretty good shape - I would have really been ripped. But we were told to avoid fat and eat tons of carbs and all that horseshit.

So now I avoid pasta, pass on the bread, pass on the chips and salsa, avoid the potato sides, avoid the pizza (the one really tough thing) for 90% of my eating and my weight just hangs in the proper window.

My advice to people trying it is to use it as a guide - not a solid rule. Find what works for you. I used the test strips to find out what triggered me and what didn't so I could keep things that didn't (like ice cream for me) and avoid what did the most (pasta and bread for me) and work into something that is sustainable. I don't count shit - I just avoid the things I know mess me up and enjoy my life.

One of the few life changing things I have found in my life.