What the heck happened to BMW?

[Germanauto]

Vote with your wallet like I did. Only the M2 or M3 could earn my dollars again, or one of the M CUVs for a future wifey.

Everybody I know with a non-M BMW couldn't care less about cars, they're badge enthusiasts and corporate knows this, hence the watered down driving dynamics the past 15 yrs.

BMW still makes a world class chassis and powertrain, but there are so many layers of refinement you only notice said chassis and balance near the limits of the car. Otherwise they drive like any other comfort-oriented luxury car.

[10"]

The driving feel of modern BMWs are awful—-even the M cars feel muted and distant. The non-M cars are no different than any other car now.

They sold out everything for sales numbers—-they’re no longer unique at all. Most of their lineup is now AWD, torque converted automatics, and just generic sedans and SUVs.

The last GOOD 3-series I drove was an E92 328 and 335. The F series 3 series was HORRIBLE in every guise and the G series 3 series was a bit better but still totally devoid of any feel.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by scotthilly

Most things… but not BMW’s, lol. Also, yeah, the body roll of a 25 year old car probably will be worse than today. It’s about the bmw brand vs competitors, not the e39 being objectively or subjectively better than a F90.

Look at something like Car and Driver 10 best. The 3 series and sometimes 5 series were a mainstay for literally decades. Left with F30 and never came back. These cars were nearly all heralded for being incredible even when new. Now, the only bmw with that designation is maybe the X5?

BMW back then was like Porsche. Expensive, but truly a step above competitors. I have more respect for Porsche as a brand now sticking with their commitment to enthusiasts than I did even 10 years ago. As brands like BMW become mass market, they’re less desirable and lose what made them special.

I can’t think of a better example than the E90 M3. Car and Driver did an article comparing it and 911 and didn’t pick a favorite, but effectively said they’re both incredible and that many things (steering feel, rode/handling, engine) were interchangeable. I’m laughing just typing that out now - imagine a G80 vs any new 911, it wouldn’t even be CLOSE. Literally not even the same sentence.

As an aside, I think the Macan is more fun (better steering, more rotation, better ride) than an M340i. I would also take my e90 335 over any bmw made since except a f8x.


OP is right. BMW is still a good manufacturer but not at all special like they once were - that specialness was from the feeling, not from numbers.

There is a Japanese show (searchable on Youtube) where they take racing drivers and race 5-6 cars around a track and talk about the driving experience.

There was an episode with the E39 M5, an M3 of the same era, and a few Japanese cars. The M5 finishes near the back of the pack.

The driver said the same thing. Nice balance, and good to drive overall, but soft, comfy, and with quite a bit of body roll. The M3 won by a large margin vs. the rest, IIRC.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

I agree with that, but only an idiot would look at yesterday through today's lens, it doesn't work that way. In its time it was a marvel for the size, and the weight.

You can't replace the feeling of lightness, the way the cars move, the inertia, so the G-Series is literally stuck adding power and tech (re: weight) to make it "better."

As Bruce Lee would say..."no thanks."

That isn't what the reviewer did though. He was comparing it with what some people said (and still say) about the E39.

In reality, it always had a good dollop of body roll, was comfortable and fairly soft.

Also worth noting is that the G30 series is often lighter than the E39. The G30 much larger car, but a car with an impressively light suspension and body. "Leergewicht" for an E39 540 here in Germany is about 1800 kg. A G30 540i with RWD comes in at 1670.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Neusser

I was watching an old Savagegeese review the other day on the E39 M5 and the reviewer was shocked by how soft the M5 felt and how much body roll it had. It was a pretty nice example, too.

IIRC, he rattled off that saying about never meeting one's heroes.

Good memories are often better than the actual experiences were.

And, yes, that applies to pretty much everything.

This made me think of this thread I started several years ago. It turns out the 3er has had more body roll through the years than I think the majority of folks realized or were willing to admit.
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...ight=Motorweek

[Innovade]

BMW went downhill after Albert Biermann left

[starlights]

Loved e46 330Ci
Was not impressed with F10 535 - felt very Toyota-ish - light with no real excitement.
Love G05 50i. Feels heavy and planted - exciting for an SUV.

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by Neusser

That isn't what the reviewer did though. He was comparing it with what some people said (and still say) about the E39.

In reality, it always had a good dollop of body roll, was comfortable and fairly soft.

I remember the first review of the new E39 M5 when it appeared in Roundel magazine. It said something to the effect of the new M5 being a nice, fast, large, luxury car. But it was not a real M-car like what we'd known in the E28 and E34 series versions.

I should remember—I wrote that review way back then.
So why does the reality surprise anyone today?

[mockngbrd]

I'd say perhaps another reason is not that BMWs drive not as good, but other manufacturers have caught up over the years to deliver similar dynamics.

[S EyeLand]

Get the kia.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by scotthilly

Most things… but not BMW’s, lol. Also, yeah, the body roll of a 25 year old car probably will be worse than today. It’s about the bmw brand vs competitors, not the e39 being objectively or subjectively better than a F90.

Look at something like Car and Driver 10 best. The 3 series and sometimes 5 series were a mainstay for literally decades. Left with F30 and never came back. These cars were nearly all heralded for being incredible even when new. Now, the only bmw with that designation is maybe the X5?

BMW back then was like Porsche. Expensive, but truly a step above competitors. I have more respect for Porsche as a brand now sticking with their commitment to enthusiasts than I did even 10 years ago. As brands like BMW become mass market, they’re less desirable and lose what made them special.

I can’t think of a better example than the E90 M3. Car and Driver did an article comparing it and 911 and didn’t pick a favorite, but effectively said they’re both incredible and that many things (steering feel, rode/handling, engine) were interchangeable. I’m laughing just typing that out now - imagine a G80 vs any new 911, it wouldn’t even be CLOSE. Literally not even the same sentence.

So your take is that BMW got worse and not that everyone else got better? That's pretty ignorant.

Originally Posted by scotthilly

As an aside, I think the Macan is more fun (better steering, more rotation, better ride) than an M340i. I would also take my e90 335 over any bmw made since except a f8x.

You're delusional my guy.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by Neusser

There is a Japanese show (searchable on Youtube) where they take racing drivers and race 5-6 cars around a track and talk about the driving experience.

There was an episode with the E39 M5, an M3 of the same era, and a few Japanese cars. The M5 finishes near the back of the pack.

The driver said the same thing. Nice balance, and good to drive overall, but soft, comfy, and with quite a bit of body roll. The M3 won by a large margin vs. the rest, IIRC.

Best Motoring

I've owned my E36 M3 for 20+ years now (it even outstayed my E46 M3). I encourage some of you to go drive these hero cars and see how they hold up vs what you remember. Prepare for disappointment.

[SteVTEC]

My wife and I bought his and her 2011 E93 335i and 2012 E70 X5 35d Bimmers back in the day, and I guess these were the last and best of breed "every day" BMW's with that perfect balance of sport and comfort in the suspension, great feedback from their hydraulic power steering racks, and overall incredible combinations of performance and fuel efficiency.

They lost the plot with the Fxx cars. Loose and pinky light steering, base suspensions more suitable for a Buick than a BMW, tachometers that were noticeably out of sync with the engine especially on a cold shift, and an overall disconnected feeling with the cars. You could still get a properly driving BMW from this era, but had to check the right boxes for MSport/DHP suspensions, etc.

BMW's explanation at the time was that they sold more cars in the Asian market and especially China, than all of Europe and North America combined. These were the preferences of that market, and so that's how they oriented the design of their cars towards super isolation and very light effort steering. I'll never forget the time I dumped a loaner F30 328i into my "high speed cornering test" at 80 mph. It was nearly a code brown moment. Another loaner F33 328i I had was an MSport with DHP and was far better.

I had planned to swap my E93 335i for an F80 M3, but life got in the way and bought a Chevy Suburban instead, so have yet to check the M box. Basically the same price at the time too.

Just picked up a CPO MY22 G05 X5 for mostly my wife to drive, and while I can't speak for other Gxx era cars yet, it's fantastic to drive even on base suspension. It's better overall than our E70, and way better than the F15 loaner I sampled years ago. Still in a state of disbelief that BMW put the adaptive dampers in all models, but just took out the different adjustments in the base, but that's what they did. Planning to add the MSport tune to it through the App to make corners a little more fun, but it's a fantastic vehicle as is. You feel special driving it, and like it's a special car to drive, which is how BMW's are supposed to feel. Hadn't felt that way about most of the Fxx series cars I drove, so we're quite pleased with it.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by mirob

Best Motoring

I've owned my E36 M3 for 20+ years now (it even outstayed my E46 M3). I encourage some of you to go drive these hero cars and see how they hold up vs what you remember. Prepare for disappointment.

Thanks! I could not for the life of me remember what show it was.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by mockngbrd

I'd say perhaps another reason is not that BMWs drive not as good, but other manufacturers have caught up over the years to deliver similar dynamics.

I am pretty impressed with the dynamics in my G31. The car is a bit soft even with 704 suspension, but it has a nose for the apex and will do what you want it to, even if it rolls a bit. The comfort levels are quite impressive given the dynamic capabilites on offer (which are even better when tire pressure is dialed properly). It also feels quite light on its feet for a car that is nearly 5 meters long.

It competes with the '43 products from Merc, and it is not even an M product.

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by mirob

You're delusional my guy.

Must be everyone else except for you, right? Keep drinking the Kool-Aid buddy!

[NickyC]

I just need a set of carbon buckets from a G82 for my F82 CS and I’m set. I adored those things in my G82. Got a couple offers out, but trying to get a set in the $7-8k range.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by mirob

If that’s what you got out of this post you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

Originally Posted by scotthilly

As an aside, I think the Macan is more fun (better steering, more rotation, better ride) than an M340i. I would also take my e90 335 over any bmw made since except a f8x.

Originally Posted by mirob

You're delusional my guy.

Originally Posted by alex2364

Must be everyone else except for you, right? Keep drinking the Kool-Aid buddy!

+1!!

[mirob]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

If that’s what you got out of this post you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

It's because you both are talking in circles without saying anything of substance. Maybe you should learn to articulate yourself and then we wouldn't have to decipher the posts.

For the sake of the argument, let's pretend I'm illiterate. Why don't you explain to me what he meant.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by mirob

It's because you both are talking in circles without saying anything of substance. Maybe you should learn to articulate yourself and then we wouldn't have to decipher the posts.

For the sake of the argument, let's pretend I'm illiterate. Why don't you explain to me what he meant.

Yes, I’ve gotten lots of complaints about being inarticulate in my time on Bimmerpost and Bimmerfest. Most of the time people can barely understand what I’m trying to say.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by alex2364

Must be everyone else except for you, right? Keep drinking the Kool-Aid buddy!

Well, even in this miniscule thread on this random Interwebz site, there are several people agreeing with him.

Perhaps make a coherent, considered post on the matter rather than posting emojis.

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by Neusser

Well, even in this miniscule thread on this random Interwebz site, there are several people agreeing with him.

Perhaps make a coherent, considered post on the matter rather than posting emojis.

As opposed to defending calling others delusional? Perhaps read the entire thread.