Mazda now benchmarks Toyota instead of BMW

[Ginger_Extract]

Originally Posted by OUGrad05

True, BMW is in a bit of an odd spot. The X3 and X5 are among the best driving vehicles in their class. Porsche is perhaps better...

The sedans though are a different story, even most of the coupe's (2 series being an exception). Unless it's a full bore M car they've lost touch...even the M cars aren't the same though they're still quite good IMO.

Yup, this. Most modern BMW's are a total snorefest, however, I recently drove the 2018 X3 M40i and was blown away at how good it was.

[OUGrad05]

Originally Posted by Ginger_Extract

Yup, this. Most modern BMW's are a total snorefest, however, I recently drove the 2018 X3 M40i and was blown away at how good it was.

We had an X3 for awhile and it drove more sporty than my 335i M Sport. Steering was better, weighted up nicely, turned in sharper, etc

[CP911]

Originally Posted by AW BMW

I just picked up a 2018 Camry for my wife in November, we ordered it to her spec. After driving the Camry, I would rethink getting a 3 series unless it was a 340i. Her car is windchill pearl white with the top half painted black with red leather interior, let me tell you that the inside of that car is a very nice place to be. With all the safety equipment it brings standard and full LED headlights among other things, it is good commuter car IMO. The transmission is quick to downshift if you want to pass or just get on it, and the gas mileage is great. This car can actually take turns very fast, I was surprised. The 4 banger engine makes some noise to and makes it feel sporty, it's not the same Camry from before. I actually enjoy driving it. She sold her Benz E350 for this car and likes this car a lot more. And for the $4,200 I got off MSRP which brought the price down to 27k even, I would consider it again.

Are you serious right now?

I got the new Camry 4-banger as my rental car when I went to last year's Formula 1 US Grand Prix in Austin. Total disappointment in nearly every way possible. Based on the TV commercials and its new looks, I had very high hopes for the car. By the end of the trip, my wife was literally annoyed with me because of how critical I was on the car. It deserved it though. Tin can construction worse than I've seen from Kia and Honda over the last half decade. You can literally hear the pop of the sheet metal on the doors flexing as you close the doors. The steering feel is one of the worst I've experienced from an EPS rack - almost as bad as the new Impreza EPS rack (however, my '16 WRX had lovely steering feel!). The engine? Totally pathetic by today's standards. My old 2012 Kia Optima with its NA 2.4L direct-injection engine pulled harder and ran smoother. Composure over bumps and bad roads was horrible as well. Just a stiff, clunky ride over anything but smooth pavement.
Then again, knowing rental car companies, it could have been attributed partly to over-inflated tires...but still. Don't even get me started on the interior design...

Just a total miss by Toyota except for maybe the exterior styling. But for me, function > form every time. Sadly, they will probably continue to sell though for the same reason I leased my Optima right out of college: (features+gas mileage)/price. Oh, and marketing/advertising too. I was watching a lot of NBA basketball back when Blake Griffin was pimping the then newly-redesigned Optima as the "Official Vehicle of the NBA." LMAO

Considering the new and upcoming Supra is a re-skinned BMW Z4, I think it is only appropriate and wise for Mazda to pay some attention to Toyota right now.

[E90M3velocity]

Originally Posted by Blksnowflake

A Mazda sedan is so far behind a BMW sedan in performance and driving dynamics/prestige that it needs to benchmark something more attainable maybe. Plus perhaps it all relates to sales success, much more Camrys are sold than 3 Series. At this present state if you think a Camry has better driving dynamics, performance, engine response, exhaust sound, transmission and prestige and overall looks than a 340, you're on crack.

Camrys and Accords are some of the ugliest cars on the road today. Mazda on the other hand actually makes some good looking cars.

I have a 2018 Camry and I enjoy it as a more comfortable, more fuel efficient, cheaper to run dull alternative to my M3 for my daily commute. I appreciate it more on a daily basis because I have to deal with Bay Area traffic and crappy roads. I still like my M3 more, but the Camry does a better job for what I use it for. But let's be real here fellas so no more of us gets offended by Mazda's decision- they are looking at Toyota's FRS and F-Sport cars for their fun-but-not-necessarily-the-fastest-on-a-straight-line appeal to average non-enthusiast car shoppers.

[AW BMW]

Originally Posted by CP911

Are you serious right now?

I got the new Camry 4-banger as my rental car when I went to last year's Formula 1 US Grand Prix in Austin. Total disappointment in nearly every way possible. Based on the TV commercials and its new looks, I had very high hopes for the car. By the end of the trip, my wife was literally annoyed with me because of how critical I was on the car. It deserved it though. Tin can construction worse than I've seen from Kia and Honda over the last half decade. You can literally hear the pop of the sheet metal on the doors flexing as you close the doors. The steering feel is one of the worst I've experienced from an EPS rack - almost as bad as the new Impreza EPS rack (however, my '16 WRX had lovely steering feel!). The engine? Totally pathetic by today's standards. My old 2012 Kia Optima with its NA 2.4L direct-injection engine pulled harder and ran smoother. Composure over bumps and bad roads was horrible as well. Just a stiff, clunky ride over anything but smooth pavement.
Then again, knowing rental car companies, it could have been attributed partly to over-inflated tires...but still. Don't even get me started on the interior design...

Just a total miss by Toyota except for maybe the exterior styling. But for me, function > form every time. Sadly, they will probably continue to sell though for the same reason I leased my Optima right out of college: (features+gas mileage)/price. Oh, and marketing/advertising too. I was watching a lot of NBA basketball back when Blake Griffin was pimping the then newly-redesigned Optima as the "Official Vehicle of the NBA." LMAO

Considering the new and upcoming Supra is a re-skinned BMW Z4, I think it is only appropriate and wise for Mazda to pay some attention to Toyota right now.

Yes I am serious, for a commuter car it is pretty good. At least that is my opinion on it. I am not saying its a sports sedan but ours does feel solid. By the way, rental cars never feel as solid as a personal car with a one owner. Those cars get flogged and treated like junk from day one, so your Comparison isn't one. And also this isn't my car, it belongs to my wife so this car is more than enough for all the miles she puts on her vehicles. Of coarse this car doesn't hold a candle to my f80 in terms of performance or looks, and my Tacoma pro is my daily vehicle and that thing is extremely solid. Not one rattle can be heard in that cabin, sometimes it's the luck of the draw with some vehicles no matter what manufacturer they are from. I think Toyota nailed it with this model as it is a big improvement in every way over the previous model it replaced. You don't have to like it, but we do and that is what matters in the end.

[Encanto]

Originally Posted by aozer

I think anyone who buys a 320i is probably doing it just for the badge. It really doesn’t do anything better than it’s competition.

A 320i with 704 does...

[Encanto]

Maybe, just maybe, Mazda realized that their “Zoom Zoom” just don’t sell enough cars. The same way BMW found out that their “Ultimate Driving Machine” did not about 10 years ago.

Toyota never, ever, has been known as a great handling, performance brand. And still they move 300,000 Camry’s each and every year in the USA. I don’t think that there is coincidence that both Mazda and BMW total annual sales in the USA are about 300,000 sales each. The difference is that BMW changes in driving feel philosophy have in fact increased sales worldwide. Mazda is still struggling worldwide.

To me Mazda is just admitting that following BMW did not work for them. Especially when BMW was not following themselves for a decade. Handling and tight accurate steering is not where the sales are.

[CP911]

Originally Posted by AW BMW

Yes I am serious, for a commuter car it is pretty good. At least that is my opinion on it. I am not saying its a sports sedan but ours does feel solid. By the way, rental cars never feel as solid as a personal car with a one owner. Those cars get flogged and treated like junk from day one, so your Comparison isn't one. And also this isn't my car, it belongs to my wife so this car is more than enough for all the miles she puts on her vehicles. Of coarse this car doesn't hold a candle to my f80 in terms of performance or looks, and my Tacoma pro is my daily vehicle and that thing is extremely solid. Not one rattle can be heard in that cabin, sometimes it's the luck of the draw with some vehicles no matter what manufacturer they are from. I think Toyota nailed it with this model as it is a big improvement in every way over the previous model it replaced. You don't have to like it, but we do and that is what matters in the end.

Look, I get that not everyone needs a high performance sports sedan. My wife drives the new Honda Pilot (which has atrociously hard suspension tuning itself, especially for an SUV!!) and before that it was a Kia Sorento. I understand that even the new Camry would make for a "good" appliance grade vehicle to people who simply need a reliable commuter with all the desired tech features. That being said, I had to keep it real when I saw comparisons to BMW or even MB. Ignoring price, one would have to be insane to think the Camry drives better or is a better vehicle in any way than even a base model 3-series. Just sayin'.

[OUGrad05]

Originally Posted by CP911

Look, I get that not everyone needs a high performance sports sedan. My wife drives the new Honda Pilot (which has atrociously hard suspension tuning itself, especially for an SUV!!) and before that it was a Kia Sorento. I understand that even the new Camry would make for a "good" appliance grade vehicle to people who simply need a reliable commuter with all the desired tech features. That being said, I had to keep it real when I saw comparisons to BMW or even MB. Ignoring price, one would have to be insane to think the Camry drives better or is a better vehicle in any way than even a base model 3-series. Just sayin'.

That's a fair point. But you diminish your credibility when you have posts like the one above. The newly redesigned Camry is a vastly improved car and one that is actually built well.
Tin can construction and the metal flexing and popping when you close the doors? Get outta here with that crap. Do the doors feel light and flimsy in comparison to a BMW? Sure...do they sound somewhat hollow when closed? Yes absolutely but they're not about to fall off the vehicle.

The Honda Accord, both the latest and the one just replaced is an EXCELLENT car. In fact it is the best overall car in it's segment and that's especially true after the redesign. Material quality is very good in the first row and its reasonably quiet.

[OUGrad05]

Oh and dynamics are good on last and current gen Accord. Reasonable on the new Camry.

I don't have any plans to buy a Camry, would consider an Accord though, it's really that well built. Neither are built as well as my BMW, not particularly close in that regard. That doesn't make them garbage and the hyperbole regarding the build quality is ridiculous.

[AW BMW]

Originally Posted by CP911

Look, I get that not everyone needs a high performance sports sedan. My wife drives the new Honda Pilot (which has atrociously hard suspension tuning itself, especially for an SUV!!) and before that it was a Kia Sorento. I understand that even the new Camry would make for a "good" appliance grade vehicle to people who simply need a reliable commuter with all the desired tech features. That being said, I had to keep it real when I saw comparisons to BMW or even MB. Ignoring price, one would have to be insane to think the Camry drives better or is a better vehicle in any way than even a base model 3-series. Just sayin'.

Well I did say any 3 series below a 340i, you would have to really think about it when entering a commuter car search. I don't think a 220 or 330i would be any better than a Camry or accord at that point, unless all you care about is the badge. You can't dismiss the tech in these toyotas and hondas and the price you are paying for them when compared to the lower 3series cars from BMW. Our MB E350 had that solid build quality in the interior and was extremely luxurious, but the transmission and placement of the shifter were a big disappointment. Another thing that would get to me was that feeling that I was driving a boat because of the weight. Now I am sure the new E350 has greatly improved, but we no longer felt like spending more than twice the money that we spent for a car that was going to see lots of miles put on it. Maintenance costs were another reason for picking a car like the Camry.

One thing that is great about having so many choices in cars now a days is that you can buy whatever you think fits your needs, and you can vote on that with your wallet.

[E90M3velocity]

Originally Posted by AW BMW

Yes I am serious, for a commuter car it is pretty good. At least that is my opinion on it. I am not saying its a sports sedan but ours does feel solid. By the way, rental cars never feel as solid as a personal car with a one owner. Those cars get flogged and treated like junk from day one, so your Comparison isn't one. And also this isn't my car, it belongs to my wife so this car is more than enough for all the miles she puts on her vehicles. Of coarse this car doesn't hold a candle to my f80 in terms of performance or looks, and my Tacoma pro is my daily vehicle and that thing is extremely solid. Not one rattle can be heard in that cabin, sometimes it's the luck of the draw with some vehicles no matter what manufacturer they are from. I think Toyota nailed it with this model as it is a big improvement in every way over the previous model it replaced. You don't have to like it, but we do and that is what matters in the end.

I get the feeling some people cannot appreciate things for what they are, I guess because some things are not as prestige as a BMW... I wonder what Bentley and Roll Royce owners think of us...

[MyFragileHalogen]

Off topic but I think BMW should benchmark Mazda for the handling and connection to the road. The MX-5 handles like a dream compare to a big heavy bimmer.

[aozer]

my 235i isn’t perfect but I’d still take it over anything in the Toyota or Lexus line up. Then again I’d take it over 90% of the bmw line up as well.

[BMWSeven]

Originally Posted by OUGrad05

Of course a 12 year newer car has a better interior.

The G30 does not have a better quality interior than an E39. More modern design obviously, but not better quality.

[BMWSeven]

Maybe Mazda now has the knowledge to tune cars properly, and now they want to learn hard core reliability - which BMWs are not known to have.

[OUGrad05]

Originally Posted by BMWSeven

The G30 does not have a better quality interior than an E39. More modern design obviously, but not better quality.

Sorry but you're wrong. Wrong by a wide margin. Plastics are better, center console is much better. Leather is better...

E39 is a great car, especially for it's time but you're absolutely wrong if you think it's better interior quality than the G30. In fact I was in an E39 just a couple weeks ago, I wanted to drive it to see if it was as good as I had remembered. Despite this car being in mint condition it was amazing how far we have come from an interior quality perspective.

[Ali Shiralian]

I have a feeling the Lexus F-sport platform will be the bench mark for many manufacturers in future

I've been a longtime BMW owner enthusiast and recently have moved to other manufacturers who still provide driving joy of the past bmws. Until BMW comes around and make cars that gave the feeling of ultimate driving machine, I'll be looking elsewhere for my rides.

Cheers..

[OUGrad05]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

I have a feeling the Lexus F-sport platform will be the bench mark for many manufacturers in future

I've been a longtime BMW owner enthusiast and recently have moved to other manufacturers who still provide driving joy of the past bmws. Until BMW comes around and make cars that gave the feeling of ultimate driving machine, I'll be looking elsewhere for my rides.

Cheers..

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

I have a feeling the Lexus F-sport platform will be the bench mark for many manufacturers in future

I've been a longtime BMW owner enthusiast and recently have moved to other manufacturers who still provide driving joy of the past bmws. Until BMW comes around and make cars that gave the feeling of ultimate driving machine, I'll be looking elsewhere for my rides.

Cheers..

that's a real possibility, the GSF drives quite well

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

Off topic but I think BMW should benchmark Mazda for the handling and connection to the road. The MX-5 handles like a dream compare to a big heavy bimmer.

For pure driving joy and not for power in straight line I don't think anything currently beats an MX5. I agree with you completely.

[BMWSeven]

Originally Posted by OUGrad05

Sorry but you're wrong. Wrong by a wide margin. Plastics are better, center console is much better. Leather is better...

E39 is a great car, especially for it's time but you're absolutely wrong if you think it's better interior quality than the G30. In fact I was in an E39 just a couple weeks ago, I wanted to drive it to see if it was as good as I had remembered. Despite this car being in mint condition it was amazing how far we have come from an interior quality perspective.

Just a few examples - The door pockets are not fully lined (F10/G30) vs fully lined in the E39. The sides of the center console under the armrests are hard plastic vs rubberized in the E39. The leather...depends on the optioned leather - that Dakota base leather feels like pleather. E39 sure beats my E66 (which obviously beats an E60) and somewhat beats my F10 - the F10 does not feel as solidly built. The G30 equals it (some are better, some worse).

In all of them - the plastic covering the seatbelts/B-pillar is hard plastic. I was hoping it would be corrected in the G30...nope.

This could have been me (it's not)...but exactly how I feel up cars

Check the way he runs his fingers to the sides of the dashboard and runs into hard plastic. In the E39 it is thick squishy rubber. Then the door pockets as I mentioned above...arrgh.

[yco]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

It's complicated for sure but changing consumer demand of the typical BMW owner, euro emissions/FE targets and autonomous driving technology.

When BMW teamed up with Apple about ten years ago, it was the beginning of the end sorta speak.

actually the thing i meant is not that deep though.. im a designer but im seeing things with ordinary eyes from costumer side.. the first things you notice when you sit in a car steering wheel, dials, and dash.. they were really odd till 3-5 years ago.. its still odd if its not a M or M packed car.. dials i mean gauges were like came from 90's which they really were.. recent ones are still optional.. i had an E46 M3 for more than 2 years.. you were not expecting any other touches to the car and that era or that design cause the whole car is plain and neat.. its just like a nice plain dish.. but the other day we were looking a car for my gf i ve seen X2 for the first time.. yeah it looks like GLA which doesnt mean its bad and it was looking like a facelift of BMW itself.. but when you sit in the car.. steering wheel leather is not good, they re still putting small screen like a watch even my M3's screen was bigger than that.. and more importantly.. after disappointing i wanted to adjust the seat.. and what.. it was analog.. its a brand new car, year is 2018.. its a premium car and the price is higher than GLA biggest rival of X2 without even adding bigger screen etc.. this is not right.. you can put an analog seat in a M car for weight saving etc. but for average user ll need that.. it might look small but there are lot of things like this and it needs to be fixed already before its too late..