F1 2024: Dutch GP - Zandvoort (Aug 25)

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by dfox

And it seems poised to stay that way, despite all the rhetoric that Liberty is trying to US-ify the sport. Europe is largely gatekeeping the sport.

Liberty is denying entry of a US motorsports team that would be worthy of competing... one that has 7 Indy car manufacturer championships in the past 12 years (Chevy is under the same ownership as Cadillac, so no different than the Renault/alpine).

Drivers are european because there is no roadmap in the US for drivers to get to F1. The carting scene here doesn't exist, so someone has to move to Europe to become a part of it. Even if someone is super successful in Indy car, the points given out to obtain an F1 super license are pathetic - enter Pato O'Ward - dropped by RB junior team in 2019 because he wasn't given enough points from his time in Indy to race in F1, fast forward a few years and now a reserve driver, but missed some prime years to develop quicker. And Alex Palou - similar issues.

For a sport that dubs itself as the "pinnacle" of racing, the gate keeping is pretty staggering. I do not consider these drivers as the best in the world, I consider them the best drivers who got into this specific pipeline. No question in my mind that there is more talent out there that just can't get through the gate. And I enjoy it for what it is, but I'm also excited to see the sport grow beyond it's historic European borders into a true international sport.

I agree with you. They're afraid of bringing in a US based team. Other than a few drivers in F1, most of them shouldn't be there.

I also wish there was a series that was mixed motorsport - both open and closed wheel in the same series (F1 cars, GT3, LMP, etc) so we could truly see who is worth their salt. Kicker is, they are all spec cars so it truly takes the best and fastest to win.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

yes. But basically you're saying that karting is the best learing school for F1 (and probably all open wheel racing), and I agree.
That also means that a lot of (most?) US drivers won't be good enough for F1, as they miss the skill young karters get here in europe.

Right... bring karting to the US kids and the dynamics will shift. It's just a matter of time, really. Kids in the US are getting interested in motorsports other than just nascar... My son bought the lewis hamilton skin on fortnite... lol.

The underrepresentation is merely a challenge of access, not capability.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

That's not true, they're denying entry of any motorsports teams. There's a difference.
The most sure way to get into F1 is to buy a team. Is that the ideal system. No I don't think so, but if you let more teams competing, you also have to do something about qualifying and the starting grid, as I think entering more cars in the race would overcrowd the track. That can hinder the race at the top, and make things dangerous, especially at streettracks.

I don't disagree here... Just odd that they got half acceptance, but Liberty is the one apparently full on denying them. They should figure out how to just buy a struggling team like Haas or Alpine.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Soccer and F1 are the only things that Europe still has that America hasn't dominated at, and it's only because we don't care.

...

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Apparently some do.
...
Do you think that fits the american stereotype?

I tend to agree with AmuroRay on the first part. Most American's don't care. But, both sports are picking up some steam in urban areas. However, I rarely meet anyone who follows F1. Only have 2 or 3 friends I'd call casual fans. Most American's don't know the difference between F1 and IndyCar

Soccer? It's gaining. Once again, mostly in urban areas because people are more diverse and bring soccer culture with them. Parents I know also seem to be steering their kids away from American Football due to CTE and serious injury risk.

Personally I enjoy watching women's soccer much more than men's. It seems to be more action packed. Plus, as an American, violent games like Football are more my thing. I couldn't give 2 $hits about grown men running around kicking each other in the shins. And tie games? That's definitely a NO GO!!! So yes, except for F1 I mostly fit the American stereotype.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I agree with you. They're afraid of bringing in a US based team. Other than a few drivers in F1, most of them shouldn't be there.

I also wish there was a series that was mixed motorsport - both open and closed wheel in the same series (F1 cars, GT3, LMP, etc) so we could truly see who is worth their salt. Kicker is, they are all spec cars so it truly takes the best and fastest to win.

I'd like to see an F1 driver miata cup.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Obviously I like formula 1 or I wouldn't be here. But if Americans cared, we would be Formula 1's biggest market and dominate it like we do anything else we enjoy. Football, baseball, basketball, Warfare, Colonialization, exploitation - U-S-A U-S-A

America's biggest, fastest and strongest go to football, basketball and baseball. Every other sport gets the leftovers.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

America's biggest, fastest and strongest go to football, basketball and baseball.

But the same reasoning can be used the other way around.
I can also say the rest of the world doesn't care about american football, basketball and baseball. Those sports hardly get any exposure on TV in the rest of the world.
So they get the 'leftovers' in the rest of the world.
To make a good comparison you'd have to compare sports that are equally popular, and ideally take population size of the country in the mix too.

I think motorsports gives a good comparison. I mean, I think motorsports are on average way more popular in the US than in most parts of the world, given how much people are attending all those races in multiple different disciplines.
But still, drivers from indy, or nascar or whatever US racing class that venture in F1 are rarely succesful, whereas F1 drivers that venture into US racing classes, are on average very very succesful. From that you can only conclude that the bar set in F1 is much much higher, and that F1 drivers are just much better than US indycar or nascar drivers.
And the strange thing is that it mostly seems to limit to car roadracing.
If you look at motorcycle racing the pinnacle is motoGP and before that the 500CC 2 stroke, US drivers have been very succesful.
But if you look at population size of countries, I think countries like Australia, Italy and the UK are crazy succesful in motorsports in general.

[M5Rick]

Mansell won the '92 F1 title then won the Indy title the following year.

[helmet91]

Originally Posted by dfox

I'd like to see an F1 driver miata cup.

Bring back IROC… have the best drivers from all series again. Then see who’s the best.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

I tend to agree with AmuroRay on the first part. Most American's don't care. But, both sports are picking up some steam in urban areas. However, I rarely meet anyone who follows F1. Only have 2 or 3 friends I'd call casual fans. Most American's don't know the difference between F1 and IndyCar

Soccer? It's gaining. Once again, mostly in urban areas because people are more diverse and bring soccer culture with them. Parents I know also seem to be steering their kids away from American Football due to CTE and serious injury risk.

Personally I enjoy watching women's soccer much more than men's. It seems to be more action packed. Plus, as an American, violent games like Football are more my thing. I couldn't give 2 $hits about grown men running around kicking each other in the shins. And tie games? That's definitely a NO GO!!! So yes, except for F1 I mostly fit the American stereotype.

Agree with everything here except women's sports. Not only will I not watch 90 minutes of soccer to see maybe one score or a tie game, I'm not going to watch slower, weaker and less explosive women do it either. I'll pass.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Agree with everything here except women's sports. Not only will I not watch 90 minutes of soccer to see maybe one score a tie game. I'm not going to watch slower, weaker and less explosive women do it either. I'll pass.

Definitely a no with me also, football and some other sports with womans boxing in particular are off for me.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Definitely a no with me also, football and some other sports with womans boxing in particular are off for me.

Brad at Eau-Rouge (!)

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Agree with everything here except women's sports. Not only will I not watch 90 minutes of soccer to see maybe one score a tie game. I'm not going to watch slower, weaker and less explosive women do it either. I'll pass.

Oh, I never intentionally watch soccer!!! But forced to choose between men and women it's women. Being "slower, weaker and less explosive" makes it more entertaining. They might not score more but seem to have many more legit scoring attempts. Men's is just a game of keep away.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Brad at Eau-Rouge (!)

This is America's attempt at making F1 cool. Goodbye Europe, you used to own Formula 1.

Now let the Americans show you how it's done.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Brad at Eau-Rouge (!)

Let's not forget this one on the way..heart palpitations starting.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

This is America's attempt at making F1 cool. Goodbye Europe, you used to own Formula 1.

Now let the Americans show you how it's done.

Mate , It's a movie and actually a 'FAKE race ....
A real F1 race and real legendary F1 tracks like SPA-Francorchamps you only can see that in Europe (Belgium)!

On the other hand : For sure , I'll watch Brad's F1 movie because it 'LOOKS great.

In other words : Fake vs Reality.
You should be aware of that ...
F1 is/was made great in Europe , because F1 is born in Europe...
And no one can change that (!)

1939 : Spa-Francorchamps was a 9.32 mile-15km track. (!)

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

But the same reasoning can be used the other way around.
I can also say the rest of the world doesn't care about american football, basketball and baseball. Those sports hardly get any exposure on TV in the rest of the world.
So they get the 'leftovers' in the rest of the world.

Kinda agree but soccer certainly doesn't get the biggest and strongest. Soccer gets athletic and fastest with amazing endurance. But have you seen these guys? They definitely aren't the biggest and strongest.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Mate , It's a movie and actually a 'FAKE race ....
A real F1 race and real legendary F1 tracks like SPA-Francorchamps you only can see that in Europe (Belgium)!

On the other hand : For sure , I'll watch Brad's F1 movie because it 'LOOKS great.

In other words : Fake vs Reality.
You should be aware of that ...
F1 is/was made great in Europe , because F1 is born in Europe...
And no one can change that (!)

1939 : Spa-Francorchamps was a 9.32 mile-15km track. (!)

Look at this! Where were you in '66

[M5Rick]

Why stop now ,here's MAX at Monaco in '37...

[dfox]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I think motorsports gives a good comparison. I mean, I think motorsports are on average way more popular in the US than in most parts of the world, given how much people are attending all those races in multiple different disciplines.

The most popular motorsport in the US is Nascar, by far. Nascar skills do not really translate over to open wheel racing, the downforce and other dynamics of the car are just so vastly different. Talent may cross over, but there's a whole new skillset needed.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

But still, drivers from indy, or nascar or whatever US racing class that venture in F1 are rarely succesful, whereas F1 drivers that venture into US racing classes, are on average very very succesful.

What specific examples do you have? I've googled to find examples, but finding very few who went from F1 to Nascar, and the ones I can find were not "very very successful".
Juan Pablo Montoya (Columbian) - Pretty successful in Nascar
Kimi Raikkonen - not successful in Nascar
Jacques Villeneuve - best finish was 51st place.
Nelson Piquet Jr - not very successful in Nascar,
Scott Speed - an American, slightly more successful in Nascar than others.

Mario Andretti went the opposite direction, from Nascar to F1, and managed to win a race in F1

So honestly, the passes back and forth between the two sports are pretty equal. A select few are successful in both, but most struggle to compete when switching from open wheel to stock car racing or vice versa.

[3798j]

Originally Posted by dfox

.
Mario Andretti went the opposite direction, from Nascar to F1, and managed to win a race in F1.

Mario only ran in 14 NASCAR races, winning the '67 Daytona 500. He was much better known for his USAC/ CART championships (4).
His F1 record:
1 WDC ('78)
12 wins
19 podiums
He is one of only three drivers to have won races in Formula One, IndyCar, the World Sportscar Championship, and NASCAR.
He is the only driver to win the Indianapolis 500 (1969), Daytona 500 (1967) and the Formula One World Championship.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Andretti

[Killed by Death]

Larson claims he is better all-round driver than Verstappen.

https://www.motorsportweek.com/2024/...1s-verstappen/

[3798j]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Larson claims he is better all-round driver than Verstappen.

https://www.motorsportweek.com/2024/...1s-verstappen/

He's definitely a better passer...his car control is downright amazing.