Navy thread

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by Llarry

Well, they fixed the waviness in the latest ones, right? I believe the later DDGs do not have CIWS anymore. They've got RAM launchers now.

DEYO was a SpruCan.

[Llarry]

The only Navy to develop armed aircraft to use from submarines was the World War II Imperial Japanese Navy. They built a series of large I-400 class submarines with offset superstructures and tubular aircraft hangars to store folded and partially disassembled aircraft. Each submarine could store three Aichi M6A special attack aircraft and had a catapult on the foredeck.

For the times, the I-400 submarine was a monster, displacing some 4,500 tons. By comparison, a U.S. Navy fleet boat displaced just over 1,500 tons on the surface.

The M6A aircraft was a twin-float design with a crew of two. It could carry bombs up to 800 kg (1,700+ lbs.) and had a rear-firing machine gun for defense. It was powered by an inverted liquid-cooled V-12 engine. Some 20 production M6As were produced in 1944-45.

The original plan was to attack the locks of the Panama Canal with a group of M6As carried by several I-400 class submarines. As the war progressed, the planned target was changed to Ulithi Atoll where a large number of Allied ships could always be found. The IJN First Submarine Flotilla, with four submarines carrying 10 M6As departed Japan on the attack mission in July of 1945, but the war ended before the attack could take place.

The first photo shows three Japanese aircraft-carrying submarines tied up after the war next to a U.S. fleet submarine and emphasizes the great size of the IJN boats.

In the second photo, the catapult track can be seen on the foredeck of an I-400 class boat, as well as a crane to hoist the aircraft onboard after landing.

The third (small) photo shows an M6A attack floatplane in assembled form.

[Llarry]

The U.S. Navy Medium Landing Ship (LSM) is coming closer to reality. The 2025 Navy budget includes funding for the first vessel and the plan is to award a contract in the Spring of 2025 and take delivery of the ship in 2029. A class of at least 18 ships (and as many as 35) is desired.

The new LSM is being designed for a potential Pacific war with China and is for use by U.S. Marine Corps units on the many Pacific islands. The Marines plan to deploy small units armed with antiship missiles at many locations and to move them around using the LSMs. These Marine units will also include some infantry and light anti-aircraft weapons.

The LSMs themselves are conceived as relatively small and inexpensive landing ships that would blend in to some extent with normal maritime traffic and thus be difficult to detect. The notional characteristics sought by the Navy are:
-- 200 to 400 feet long
-- Draft of 12 feet
-- Able to beach on a 1:40 gradient beach with a bow ramp. (Note that the USN built a huge number of beaching ships in World War II through the 1960s; all such ships have been long retired.)
-- Able to carry a platoon of about 50 Marines together with up to 650 tons of weapons/equipment.
-- Equipped with a helicopter pad
-- Armed with light (30mm and .50 cal) weapons
-- Navy crew of about 70

If a contract is to be awarded some months from now, I suspect there are some rather detailed designs being worked on by shipbuilding corporations. I can find none of those; just this crude notional illustration.

[KurtsM5]

We did Harrier Ops on Shreveport. Holy smokes those jets are LOUD. Bunch of us Ops pukes were standing on the 03 level aft and watching, probably 200 feet away from the Harriers landing/taking off. Couldn't find a pic of Shreverport, here's one of a Harrier on LPD10, sister ship.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Llarry

The LSMs themselves are conceived as relatively small and inexpensive landing ships that would blend in to some extent with normal maritime traffic and thus be difficult to detect. The notional characteristics sought by the Navy are:
-- 200 to 400 feet long
-- Draft of 12 feet
-- Able to beach on a 1:40 gradient beach with a bow ramp. (Note that the USN built a huge number of beaching ships in World War II through the 1960s; all such ships have been long retired.)
-- Able to carry a platoon of about 50 Marines together with up to 650 tons of weapons/equipment.
-- Equipped with a helicopter pad
-- Armed with light (30mm and .50 cal) weapons
-- Navy crew of about 70

For comparison, in World War II the U.S. built almost 600 (!) LSMs. They were just over 200 feet long and Diesel-powered (as no doubt the new ones will be) with a crew of 60. They could carry over 50 Marines and had a near-full length cargo deck with bow doors and ramp. Here's a diagram of what they looked like, along with a photo. I suspect an updated version of this antique landing ship would be near ideal.

The WWII version had a speed of just 13 knots; I suspect the Navy will want more speed in the new ones. The new ones will have to avoid any fancy radar equipment -- in order to blend in with civil traffic they will have to use commonly available commercial style radars.

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by KurtsM5

We did Harrier Ops on Shreveport. Holy smokes those jets are LOUD. Bunch of us Ops pukes were standing on the 03 level aft and watching, probably 200 feet away from the Harriers landing/taking off. Couldn't find a pic of Shreverport, here's one of a Harrier on LPD10, sister ship.

LPD? I was on LPD9 (Denver) from '76-'79.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by KurtsM5

We did Harrier Ops on Shreveport. Holy smokes those jets are LOUD.

I've never seen an F-35 in the flesh, but I hear that they are much louder than any of the aircraft that they are replacing. Unsurprising, considering that they have over 40,000 pounds of thrust.

[Llarry]

Speaking of new LSMs (see the posts above), the last class of U.S. Navy ships designed to beach themselves in amphibious assaults were tank landing ships (LSTs) delivered in the 1970s. The previous LSTs were limited in speed due to the bow doors; The Newport class LSTs were designed to get around this limitation with an innovative system to extend a landing ramp over the bow, rather than an actual opening in the bow that could be leaky, etc.

Ships and craft designed to beach themselves are generally designed to have shallower draft forward to allow them to get closer to the shoreline.

In April of 1984, the USS Barbour County (LST 1195) had attempted to beach herself on the Silver Strand just south of Coronado, California during a training exercise. Whether by wave action or some other factor, the Barbour County got turned around so that she was no longer headed for the beach and ran aground. It took tugs and tides to pull her off. Beaching a ship is not a trivial evolution.

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by Llarry

Speaking of new LSMs (see the posts above), the last class of U.S. Navy ships designed to beach themselves in amphibious assaults were tank landing ships (LSTs) delivered in the 1970s. The previous LSTs were limited in speed due to the bow doors; The Newport class LSTs were designed to get around this limitation with an innovative system to extend a landing ramp over the bow, rather than an actual opening in the bow that could be leaky, etc.

Ships and craft designed to beach themselves are generally designed to have shallower draft forward to allow them to get closer to the shoreline.

In April of 1984, the USS Barbour County (LST 1195) had attempted to beach herself on the Silver Strand just south of Coronado, California during a training exercise. Whether by wave action or some other factor, the Barbour County got turned around so that she was no longer headed for the beach and ran aground. It took tugs and tides to pull her off. Beaching a ship is not a trivial evolution.

IIRC, we did a WESTPAC with that ship.

[Llarry]

At the battle of Tassafaronga in late 1942, the U.S. Navy heavy cruiser USS New Orleans (CA 32) was hit in the bow by a Japanese surface-launched heavy torpedo, which severed the bow section, detonated the forward ammunition magazine and destroyed the forwardmost gun turret, causing heavy loss of life. Despite the grievous damage, the New Orleans managed to limp to Australia, where a temporary bow structure was fitted. The cruiser then made the long voyage to the USA, where a new bow and turret were fitted. By the Summer of 1943, the New Orleans was repaired and ready for action.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Llarry

Icebreaker Collaboration Effort (ICE) Pact: Canada, Finland and the United States recently (July 2024) signed an agreement to produce icebreakers. Finland is one of the world's foremost designers/builders of icebreakers and will probably end up in the lead on the project. Canada and the U.S. Coast Guard will hopefully benefit from the treaty.

With global warming, the Arctic is taking on increasing importance and icebreakers will have an important role in Arctic operations.

A bit more on the ICE Pact...

The most famous icebreaker builder in Finland is the Helsinki Shipyard, founded in 1865. The yard was scheduled to be converted to a retail area until late in 2023, when it was purchased by Canadian shipbuilding company Davie. Although I have not seen explicit plans, I suspect that the Helsinki Shipyard will play an important role in the design of the forthcoming Canadian and U.S. icebreakers. Davie and the U.S. Bollinger Mississippi shipyard will participate as well.

Photos:
1) Helsinki Shipyard
2) CGI of future large Canadian icebreaker
3) CGI of future U.S. Coast Guard Polar Security Cutter

[KurtsM5]

Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc

LPD? I was on LPD9 (Denver) from '76-'79.

I was on 12. We called LPD "Large Piece of Debris".

[KurtsM5]

Originally Posted by Llarry

At the battle of Tassafaronga in late 1942, the U.S. Navy heavy cruiser USS New Orleans (CA 32) was hit in the bow by a Japanese surface-launched heavy torpedo, which severed the bow section, detonated the forward ammunition magazine and destroyed the forwardmost gun turret, causing heavy loss of life. Despite the grievous damage, the New Orleans managed to limp to Australia, where a temporary bow structure was fitted. The cruiser then made the long voyage to the USA, where a new bow and turret were fitted. By the Summer of 1943, the New Orleans was repaired and ready for action.

Wow, how did she not sink??? Helluva crew!

[KurtsM5]

In 1985 my ship LPD12 went to Mobile, AL from Norfolk. When we were rounding Key West, the Pegasus class hydrofoils came out and gave us a show, zooming around us. It was cool as hell!

"In May of 1985, SHREVEPORT was present for the opening ceremonies of the Tennessee-Tombigbee Waterway in Mobile, Alabama."

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by KurtsM5

In 1985 my ship LPD12 went to Mobile, AL from Norfolk. When we were rounding Key West, the Pegasus class hydrofoils came out and gave us a show, zooming around us. It was cool as hell!

The history of the Pegasus class hydrofoil missile craft is interesting. As occasionally is the case, the concept was the pet project of an admiral, in this case Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Zumwalt (CNO 1970-74). He wanted a class of 30 of these PHMs. He was gone before the six Pegasus class were commissioned (1977-83). And they were only active in the fleet until 1993, so it's hard to believe that the taxpayers got their money's worth.

The second photo shows the Pegasus (PHM 1) pulled ashore on a trailer with the hydrofoils folded up.

The U.S. Navy does not do "small" very well. It seems like every time someone comes up with a small/cheap alternative, a few get built and then get retired before their time. The current poster child for that is the littoral combat ship.

[KurtsM5]

Originally Posted by Llarry

Speaking of new LSMs (see the posts above), the last class of U.S. Navy ships designed to beach themselves in amphibious assaults were tank landing ships (LSTs) delivered in the 1970s. The previous LSTs were limited in speed due to the bow doors; The Newport class LSTs were designed to get around this limitation with an innovative system to extend a landing ramp over the bow, rather than an actual opening in the bow that could be leaky, etc.

Ships and craft designed to beach themselves are generally designed to have shallower draft forward to allow them to get closer to the shoreline.

In April of 1984, the USS Barbour County (LST 1195) had attempted to beach herself on the Silver Strand just south of Coronado, California during a training exercise. Whether by wave action or some other factor, the Barbour County got turned around so that she was no longer headed for the beach and ran aground. It took tugs and tides to pull her off. Beaching a ship is not a trivial evolution.

Oops! I guess the skipper drove a desk for the rest of his career.
We deployed with LSTs to the Med. Good grief those things were slow. Diesel powered.

[KurtsM5]

Originally Posted by Llarry

Speaking of new LSMs (see the posts above), the last class of U.S. Navy ships designed to beach themselves in amphibious assaults were tank landing ships (LSTs) delivered in the 1970s. The previous LSTs were limited in speed due to the bow doors; The Newport class LSTs were designed to get around this limitation with an innovative system to extend a landing ramp over the bow, rather than an actual opening in the bow that could be leaky, etc.

Ships and craft designed to beach themselves are generally designed to have shallower draft forward to allow them to get closer to the shoreline.

In April of 1984, the USS Barbour County (LST 1195) had attempted to beach herself on the Silver Strand just south of Coronado, California during a training exercise. Whether by wave action or some other factor, the Barbour County got turned around so that she was no longer headed for the beach and ran aground. It took tugs and tides to pull her off. Beaching a ship is not a trivial evolution.

That had to have trashed her screws and shafts.

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by KurtsM5

I was on 12. We called LPD "Large Piece of Debris".

The name we had was not near as nice...

Use your imagination...

[Llarry]

Ukraine continues to attack units of the Russian Black Sea Fleet. On Friday, August 2nd, they claim to have sunk the Russian Project 877 (NATO Kilo class) submarine named Rostov-on-Don which was in port at Sevastopol in Crimea with a missile. Ukraine had previous claimed another Russian sub in a missile attack, although that boat may have been only severely damaged.

[Llarry]

This grainy photo is of the very first angled flight deck test on an aircraft carrier. As you can see, the deck itself is not angled -- angled markings have been painted on the deck of the Royal Navy light carrier HMS Triumph (R16) for the 1952 tests. The arresting wires are still aligned as for a straight deck carrier.

This first rudimentary trial was quickly followed by modifications to the USS Antietam (CV 36) that included the addition of a sponson on the port (left) side of the ship to allow a true angled deck. (2nd photo) U.S. Navy and Royal Navy landing trials quickly followed, proving the concept. Modifications to existing war-built aircraft carriers and those under construction ensued. The angled deck allowed much safer operation of new high-performance jet aircraft from aircraft carriers.

[Llarry]

Fourteen nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs) of the U.S. Navy conduct constant deterrent patrols as a key component of U.S. strategic forces.

The USS Ohio (SSBN 726) was the lead unit of the class, which consisted of 18 boats. Each boat was equipped with 24 missile tubes which carried Trident ballistic missiles, and each missile had multiple (up to 12) re-entry vehicles with nuclear warheads. In the late 1990s it was decided that 14 boats would be sufficient for the mission and in the early 2000s, the four oldest SSBNs were modified to fire Tomahawk cruise missiles and to support special operations forces. These four were redesignated as SSGNs. They are scheduled to be retired later in this decade and replaced with Virginia-class SSNs with added cruise missile tubes.

In 2017, four of the missile tubes were deactivated as part of the New START Treaty, thus reducing the number of missiles per boat to 20.

The remaining SSBNs are scheduled to be replaced as well by a new Columbia class SSBN. The lead boat (SSBN 826) is already under construction. The Columbia class will use the same Trident D5 missile as the present force. (And the UK's Royal Navy uses the Trident D5 missile for their strategic submarines as well.)

The Trident D5 missile is a three-stage intercontinental missile with a range of over 7,000 miles with a max load of a dozen warheads. If fewer warheads are carried, the range is considerably more.

The Columbia class is about the same size as the existing Ohio class, but will have 16 missile tubes instead of 20. A class of 12 boats is planned. The Royal Navy is also planning new strategic submarines and the two navies will use a similar missile compartment for their boats, with the RN boats having 12 tubes instead of 16.

[Llarry]

The Royal Navy has four strategic missile submarines which maintain a continuous alert. The current Vanguard class boats carry 16 Trident D5 missiles and the replacement Dreadnaught class boats will carry 12.