frustrating tire changes

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by tranquility

My impact wrench plugs into a wall and apparently maxes at 350lb-ft...they couldn't have possibly tightened over that, right? I'm confused unless my wrench's specs are wrong, how the hell can 350lb-ft of power from my wrench not be enough to remove those bolts?

They could easily have tightened more than that. These new impact guns ( battery that is ) are bad ass. The plug in ones are dinosaurs. Not used much anymore. I would assume these shops are using air driven or battery and both of those can do 350 ft lbs without breaking a sweat. We use manual wrenches to around 350 at work. After that it's battery and air. We are normally doing 650 to 1100 ft lbs daily. Also, if you use never seize, that changes your torque value! The low torque on the wheels is nothing to sweat. I mean, a normal dude can probably get 50-60 ft lbs with channel locks. 😂💪🏼

[grannyknot]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

Can you explain why using never seize is such a no in your eyes? I have never had an issue

Technically, using any kind of anti seize on the threads makes it a wet torque as you say yourself in your next post.
The threads slide easier so you end up with a higher torque value than you would with a dry torque.

120NM or 85ftlbs may not seem like much but the 20 lug bolts/nuts are arguably the most important bolts on the car and their torqueing should be precise, by hand with a torque wrench.

I rarely take my vehicles in to a shop for work unless it is something I can't handle, but when I do the first thing I do when I get it back home is loosen the lug nuts and retorque them by hand.
They are almost always over torqued.

[Efthreeoh]

OP, you need a better impact gun. I have that plug-in electric impact wrench, which I bought 30 years ago when I had a different workshop location (out in front of my house on the street with jackstands - LOL). It was a Sears Craftsman model made by Black and decker. It worked ok, but it is old tech compared to modern battery-powered 1/2-drive impacts.

I've since switched to air tools mostly, but recently picked up a Milwaukee M12 impact for lighter to mid impact needs. It won't remove BMW wheel bolts even though it is rated at 250 pound-foot reverse torque. Removing wheel bolts, or any type of bolt takes much more torque than the torque-set spec, which is why all impact guns are rated for reverse-torque. And that is your impact's problem, it's weak on reverse torque.

Find a 1/2-drive battery-powered torque gun that is 18V - 24V and specifically meant for removing wheel nuts/bolts.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Onesie

You don’t have a 2-feet bar? It’s like 15 bucks, no?

Be careful with it though, if a bolt is really stuck this thing might shear its head off. Better to hit the bolt as hard as you can with a mallet a few times before trying to taking it off.

I had my E90 in at a BMW dealer when it was under warranty to chase down a fuel tank EVAP leak (was getting the gas cap warning light). Turns out a mouse bit a hole in the EVAP line that runs down along the fill pipe.

Anyway, long story short, the left rear wheel had to be removed to replace the hose. A few months later on my lift for a tire rotation, one of the wheel bolts would not come off. I have a decent-sized Ingersol-Rand 2130 air impact gun, which never has problems with removing anything. I kept hammering at it. Nothing. I then went to my trusted, tried and true 24" breaker bar. Nope. Then the pipe extension on the breaker bar. Snapped the impact socket in half.

I guess the torque stick the BMW tech used didn't get the torque right.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I had my E90 in at a BMW dealer when it was under warranty to chase down a fuel tank EVAP leak (was getting the gas cap warning light). Turns out a mouse bit a hole in the EVAP line that runs down along the fill pipe.

Anyway, long story short, the left rear wheel had to be removed to replace the hose. A few months later on my lift for a tire rotation, one of the wheel bolts would not come off. I have a decent-sized Ingersol-Rand 2130 air impact gun, which never has problems with removing anything. I kept hammering at it. Nothing. I then went to my trusted, tried and true 24" breaker bar. Nope. Then the pipe extension on the breaker bar. Snapped the impact socket in half.

I guess the torque stick the BMW tech used didn't get the torque right.

That's where the never seize is your friend. You will not have that problem

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by grannyknot

Technically, using any kind of anti seize on the threads makes it a wet torque as you say yourself in your next post.
The threads slide easier so you end up with a higher torque value than you would with a dry torque.

120NM or 85ftlbs may not seem like much but the 20 lug bolts/nuts are arguably the most important bolts on the car and their torqueing should be precise, by hand with a torque wrench.

I rarely take my vehicles in to a shop for work unless it is something I can't handle, but when I do the first thing I do when I get it back home is loosen the lug nuts and retorque them by hand.
They are almost always over torqued.

Still not sure why you think it's bad. The main point of using it is for the easier removal. It has no down side. Not saying you have to use it or anything like that. Do want you want.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

That's where the never seize is your friend. You will not have that problem

It was simply an issue of over torque. I think brake dust is the worst culprit to be honest.

Back when I was driving 35,000/year just in one car, my E90, I rotated tires every 5,000 miles, so 6 times a year. When I set the torque at 88.5 pound-foot, I never had removal issues. It was just this one time when the tech over-torqued just the one wheel bolt. What I noticed more was the excessive hammering of the bolt flats wore both the hex head of the bolt AND the impact socket to the point where the bolts would get stuck in the socket. I replaced all 20 wheel bolts eventually and buy a new 17MM impact socket every few years.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by Piper1

I know there’s a huge debate to use it or not to. But the argument of this statement means that if it’s done IMPROPER it’s good, but if done right not necessary? I know people that swear by it to use it and swear by it not to. To me it boils down to personal opinion and it’s anyones choice if they want to or not. As established it does change wet/dry tq values and on lugs can only go by my experience but ANY lug I’ve personally tightened I’ve NEVER had an issue breaking them loose without using it. The ONLY time I’ve had an issue is when someone else tqs it wrong, and/or not cleaning properly during the remount. Just my personal experience.

I hear you. I never had issue before using it either. Just use it now because I feel it could help me down the road. I use the stuff everyday and I know it's benefits. We take shit apart that was running at a 1000 degrees for six months out in the weather and once it's broken free, they come right off. It's a life saver

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

I hear you. I never had issue before using it either. Just use it now because I feel it could help me down the road. I use the stuff everyday and I know it's benefits. We take shit apart that was running at a 1000 degrees for six months out in the weather and once it's broken free, they come right off. It's a life saver

I think the real concern with using anti-seize on wheel fasteners is it changes the dry torque spec, which using the dry spec on a wet fastener could allow over-torquing of the fastener and risk fracturing the wheel. Given all road wheels use a conical-shaped surface that increases the torque force on the face of the wheel (vs. a flat bolt head against a flat wheel surface) there is risk of fracturing the conical bolt holes of the wheel if over torqued. Using a conical shaped bolt-wheel mating surface allows for a lower fastener torque value while multiplying the torque on the mating surface by the cosine of the fastener value; so you don't need to be a gorilla to fasten and remove wheel bolts/nuts.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I think the real concern with using anti-seize on wheel fasteners is it changes the dry torque spec, which using the dry spec on a wet fastener could allow over-torquing of the fastener and risk fracturing the wheel. Given all road wheels use a conical-shaped surface that increases the torque force on the face of the wheel (vs. a flat bolt head against a flat wheel surface) there is risk of fracturing the conical bolt holes of the wheel if over torqued. Using a conical shaped bolt-wheel mating surface allows for a lower fastener torque value while multiplying the torque on the mating surface by the cosine of the fastener value; so you don't need to be a gorilla to fasten and remove wheel bolts/nuts.

For sure. You can't be an idiot and hammer down to that point but if you do/ kinda deserve it:-) It's not
Like all these tire places are torquing anything. They just gun them up and on to the next. From what I've seen

[Pheonix]

Not sure what electrici Impact Gun but sounded like the OP need a better Impact Gun.
I have a Milwaukee M18 Impact Gun and it has almost 1,500 ft-lbs of nut-busting torque.

[///MPhatic]

This thread and the information in it is literally scaring the shit out of me.

Never ever ever ever ever ever ever put anti-seize on wheel studs, lug nuts, or lug bolts, ever.

I have a Summer and Winter set for all 3 of my vehicles, change all the wheel/tire combo's myself and have been for many years. My daily does go to Honda for oil changes and tire rotations, but I always retorque the lug nuts to the proper spec as soon as I get it home.

On the rare occasion the Lotus goes to the dealer and they have to take a wheel off I mark the lug bolts with a marker and take photo's, then educate them after they mess up the torque. Happens every time no matter what I tell them.

Tire installs I leave to the professionals.

[chassis]

Originally Posted by tranquility

My impact wrench plugs into a wall and apparently maxes at 350lb-ft...they couldn't have possibly tightened over that, right? I'm confused unless my wrench's specs are wrong, how the hell can 350lb-ft of power from my wrench not be enough to remove those bolts?

Please post a photo of your impact wrench. 350ft-lb sounds like the tightening torque. You aren't tightening the wheel bolts with the impact wrench are you?

350ft-lb tightening torque probably means around 1000ft-lb breakaway, check the ratings.

You also need a long 1/2" breaker bar. Standard tool for anyone who DIYs car stuff.

Anti-seize = never ever

Get a pneumatic impact wrench with and a small compressor. You will thank yourself.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Every now and then, when I DIY, I encounter some disgustingly STUCK lug bolt(s) that even my impact wrench cannot dislodge, so I have to scramble over to a mechanic to have it professionally removed.

Maybe I'm partly to blame because I just change my tires, I don't scrub anything or put whatever grease or whatever cuz I don't bother/don't think it matters much. However, if you have any pointers, please lemme know.

I'm thinking the main reason they are stuck is because the shop just over-tightened the bolts (even though I ALWAYS tell them the tq spec and that I DIY, they just don't care argh). My wheels were last handled by a shop who changed all 4 tires, but before I go off on them, my 2 front wheels were perfectly fine and I removed them w ease, but my 2 rear ones were stuck, so I would assume they put them all on properly and it has something to do w the moving wheels vs non-moving, unless they got 2 separate guys putting back the wheels? What do you think is more likely?

How many of you guys change your own tires and can give me any advice? Maybe sometimes the bolts being stuck is unavoidable?

I use WD-40 on the threads. It's cheap and easy to apply, and allows putting a proper torque easily. Threads dragging on rust will distort torque readings, leading to under-torque. One nice thing about it is that it almost completely evaporates away so there is no mess or contamination on the brakes.

It leaves just the most faint amount of lubricant behind which prevents future rust, and lube for when you want that lug to come back off.

WD-40 is a small chain hydrocarbon similar to paint thinner, with heavy grease (similar to petroleum jelly) diluted in it. The lighter "paint thinner" component evaporates off, leaving behind just the small amount of grease.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

For sure. You can't be an idiot and hammer down to that point but if you do/ kinda deserve it:-) It's not
Like all these tire places are torquing anything. They just gun them up and on to the next. From what I've seen

Agree 100%. If anything, I see shops use a torque stick but who knows if those stay in calibration. I use my gun to run the bolts/nuts down, but I don't let it hammer the fastener. I use a torque wrench; one day I'll get around to doing the at-home calibration test.. LOL

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Agree 100%. If anything, I see shops use a torque stick but who knows if those stay in calibration. I use my gun to run the bolts/nuts down, but I don't let it hammer the fastener. I use a torque wrench; one day I'll get around to doing the at-home calibration test.. LOL

Lol. The old good enough torque spec

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

Lol. The old good enough torque spec

It's close; I'm sure of it

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

This thread and the information in it is literally scaring the shit out of me.

Never ever ever ever ever ever ever put anti-seize on wheel studs, lug nuts, or lug bolts, ever.

I have a Summer and Winter set for all 3 of my vehicles, change all the wheel/tire combo's myself and have been for many years. My daily does go to Honda for oil changes and tire rotations, but I always retorque the lug nuts to the proper spec as soon as I get it home.

On the rare occasion the Lotus goes to the dealer and they have to take a wheel off I mark the lug bolts with a marker and take photo's, then educate them after they mess up the torque. Happens every time no matter what I tell them.

Tire installs I leave to the professionals.

Very long time ago, when I was a youngin', we had just finished refurbing a friend of mine's dad's rental property. After the 3-month summer/fall weekend project, his dad took us down to the beach for a thank-you weekend. Heading out Route 50 in Delmarva, Dr. D's big, newish 1976 Sedan Deville Caddy started gently shaking at the steering wheel; it knocked the ash off his cigarette. Land yacht Caddies of the 1970's don't shake, ever. So, we pull over and popped the hubcaps off the front wheels. Sure enough, the right front had three lug nuts rattling around in the big 'ole metal hubcap. Dr. D was white as a ghost with the thought of losing a wheel at 60 MPH with his son and 3 friends aboard.

We jacked it up, I tightened the lugs and were on our way. The day before the trip, Dr. D had new tires installed and an oil change. I guess the tech forgot to torque down 3 of the lugs at least. The other 2 weren't snug either. LOL.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

I use WD-40 on the threads. It's cheap and easy to apply, and allows putting a proper torque easily. Threads dragging on rust will distort torque readings, leading to under-torque. One nice thing about it is that it almost completely evaporates away so there is no mess or contamination on the brakes.

It leaves just the most faint amount of lubricant behind which prevents future rust, and lube for when you want that lug to come back off.

WD-40 is a small chain hydrocarbon similar to paint thinner, with heavy grease (similar to petroleum jelly) diluted in it. The lighter "paint thinner" component evaporates off, leaving behind just the small amount of grease.

While I'm sure there is no practical issue, this isn't good practice. It definitely doesn't allow you to put a proper torque easily, because it's a lubricant. You are now overtorquing the fastener if you use a wrench at the same set-point. It's unnecessary, and while it won't bite you on something as dumb as wheel hardware, it's the same bad logic that people use when lubricating spark plug threads despite the mfg specifying a dry application. It's unnecessary and you're now probably +20% past torque spec, just like the people saying to use anti-seize. At least it's less messy.

[G MONEY]

Here come the lube experts. Lol. Stating facts that are their opinion. Don't use lube at home either fellas. I'm sure they have reasons for that to. Now I must go/ grab my lube and well 💪🏼💪🏼🤪🤪

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by chris719

While I'm sure there is no practical issue, this isn't good practice. It definitely doesn't allow you to put a proper torque easily, because it's a lubricant. You are now overtorquing the fastener if you use a wrench at the same set-point. It's unnecessary, and while it won't bite you on something as dumb as wheel hardware, it's the same bad logic that people use when lubricating spark plug threads despite the mfg specifying a dry application. It's unnecessary and you're now probably +20% past torque spec, just like the people saying to use anti-seize. At least it's less messy.

On clean new threads, I'd agree with you. I've never, ever, done this on clean new threads. It's intended for rusty or already warn/scuffed/galled old threads where proper torque is impossible to achieve (without starting over with all new hardware anyway).

If lube becomes a consideration because the threads are F'd or were clearly too tight last time, you probably won't be getting factory spec fastener tension (which is a product of torque and surface friction) on them ever again anyway. The threads will drag and gall and likely register rated torque long before proper fastener tension is achieved. The tension is important, not just torque.

While on the subject, don't use an air wrench to put them back on, use a torque wrench. I've had lugs come back from a reputable tire shop that were at least 200% over torqued. I had to stand on the end of a 2' breaker bar to get them off an hour after I got home to properly rotate them after a flat repair. In retrospect, I never saw a torque wrench used at that tire shop.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

On clean new threads, I'd agree with you. I've never, ever, done this on clean new threads. It's intended for rusty or already warn/scuffed/galled old threads where proper torque is impossible to achieve (without starting over with all new hardware anyway).

While on the subject, don't use an air wrench to put them back on, use a torque wrench. I've had lugs come back from a reputable tire shop that were at least 200% over torqued. I had to stand on the end of a 2' breaker bar to get them off an hour after I got home to properly rotate them after a flat repair. In retrospect, I never saw a torque wrench used at that tire shop.

And you rarely will. They gun and go. They give zero fucks about your precious torque. Lol. They are definitely over torquing.