Basic Question: Is it the Driver or is it the Car?

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by MJE60

Looking at this season so far, I am pondering how much Red Bull dominance in 2023 was purely down to Max (in a car that was designed very much for him) and whether this led the team into a dark place by being overly complacent. Remove Max from the 2024 standings and Red Bull are the 4th team and even with Max the team look vulnerable to losing the constructors title. Sidelining and then losing Newey might now seem reckless and Max clearly appears increasingly frustrated. I believe one of the key factors in Lewis moving was due to being ignored on design input (and car remaining uncompetitive) and similarity I suspect that unless the car improves competitively over the next 4-5 races Max will move team, what do others think?

Just pondering? If anyone thinks that VER is primarily responsible for the Red Bull dominance in 2022 and 2023, they are a very illogical VER fan. No driver can be responsible for 20+ second wins. If someone really believes that, where are the race wins since Miami? The grid didn't forget how to drive in 2022 and 2023 and now suddenly, everyone is a F1 driver again this year.

VER is still arguably the best talent on the grid today, but this whole "Max factor" is quite comical to any logical F1 fan.

[MJE60]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

Just pondering? If anyone thinks that VER is primarily responsible for the Red Bull dominance in 2022 and 2023, they are a very illogical VER fan. No driver can be responsible for 20+ second wins. If someone really believes that, where are the race wins since Miami? The grid didn't forget how to drive in 2022 and 2023 and now suddenly, everyone is a F1 driver again this year.

VER is still arguably the best talent on the grid today, but this whole "Max factor" is quite comical to any logical F1 fan.

I certainly was not suggesting RB dominance was primarily due to VER and am also a rare visitor to this forum due to VER fanatics.

I do however ponder if RB are now paying for being overly complacent in 2023 due to some of all of the following factors;
- Mercedes drastically underperforming and failing to fix design issues caused by regulation change the previous year, thus flattering RB advantage, and
- financial caps and other F1A rules restricting ability of other top teams (more than previous years) to close the gap, and
- as previously stated whether 2/10th-3/10th per lap edge was actually provided by VER ( who was benefitting from ideal conditions and therefore not having weaknesses exposed) thus flattered RB car advantage (e.g actually only 10+ secs rather than 20+ secs) to the extent they got complacent (or took design risks). It is interesting that once competitive pressure returned we see more aggressive tactics return, which could only get worse given other driver attitudes.

Imo we will have to see several more races before drawing firm conclusions on top 4 car performance order. The last 4 races had very specific factors which may have flattered Mercedes (2 races probably won due to VER mistakes) and NOR really is making too many mistakes generally.

Thoughts?

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by MJE60

I certainly was not suggesting RB dominance was primarily due to VER and am also a rare visitor to this forum due to VER fanatics.

I do however ponder if RB are now paying for being overly complacent in 2023 due to some of all of the following factors;
- Mercedes drastically underperforming and failing to fix design issues caused by regulation change the previous year, thus flattering RB advantage, and
- financial caps and other F1A rules restricting ability of other top teams (more than previous years) to close the gap, and
- as previously stated whether 2/10th-3/10th per lap edge was actually provided by VER ( who was benefitting from ideal conditions and therefore not having weaknesses exposed) thus flattered RB car advantage (e.g actually only 10+ secs rather than 20+ secs) to the extent they got complacent (or took design risks). It is interesting that once competitive pressure returned we see more aggressive tactics return, which could only get worse given other driver attitudes.

Imo we will have to see several more races before drawing firm conclusions on top 4 car performance order. The last 4 races had very specific factors which may have flattered Mercedes (2 races probably won due to VER mistakes) and NOR really is making too many mistakes generally.

Thoughts?

Sorry, comment wasn't a dig at you, was more in general.

It's everything you mentioned. Red Bull like all successful teams (Mercedes, turbo/hybrid-era), you get a bit complacent, you lose staff to other teams and throw in the cost-cap, it shouldn't be a surprise to see Red Bull in an extended slump - it's just the cycle in F1 or in all professional sports.

Everyone s--t the bed with the new regulations, it's only this year where teams have a better understanding and have finally caught up or surpassed Red Bull (McLaren) which contributed to RB winning 85% of races last year.

We now have the most parity on the grid that we haven't seen in a while. Second half of the season should be interesting and fun.

[KMP259]

It’s 1/3rd Driver
1/3rd Car
1/3rd Crew

Worked for me 3 times

[AmuroRay]

Yes. It's both, more car than driver.

[M5Rick]

it's a combination of both in the right measure and the team and strat crew are important for sure.

[moooza]

It's kind of both - the car has to match the driver's driving style. For example, when Hamilton was dominating, they designed the car around him, with the longest wheel base of all the cars. The wheelbase was something like 30cm longer than his competitors (car length was the same, just the wheelbase increased). This was because he had such an aggresive turn in style, which was very fast, but unstable on a shorter wheelbase car.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by moooza

It's kind of both - the car has to match the driver's driving style. For example, when Hamilton was dominating, they designed the car around him, with the longest wheel base of all the cars. The wheelbase was something like 30cm longer than his competitors (car length was the same, just the wheelbase increased). This was because he had such an aggresive turn in style, which was very fast, but unstable on a shorter wheelbase car.

Ham says the car now is not situated to him - it does U turns instead of V as he likes. Hampers his performance quite a bit.

[ptack]

You have to understand that every driver drives different. For example in any race drivers may take slightly different lines and approaches to corners. Each team brings 2 cars that are essentially the same, but they will likely be tweaked to best align with each driver. The priority in car development, however, may focus on the lead driver - if there is one, but definitely if one is a current or former world champion. What this means is that in some instances the car inherently may be more optimized for one team driver rather than the other. In addition, each driver has different strengths, physical abilities and personalities. Race results at the top are usually between teams with the best cars - period. It's rare for a second-tier team to win unless there are some special circumstances such as multiple DNFs. Fernando Alonso is an example of this - he's former world champion and unquestionably one of the most talented drivers in F1, but his car simply isn't on the same level with those of the top teams, so Alonso has to try and just be the best of the rest. On the other hand, Perez has basically the same car as Verstappen, but obviously does not have the same talent, though some of his difficultly may be that the car and team are primarily optimized for Verstappen. How much better might Perez do if he was the primary driver? It's impossible to say, but I think he would have better results, but not as good as Verstappen's because he doesn't seem to have the same pure talent.
Talent, skill, endurance and mindset matter a great deal, but winning races requires having the equipment and team support needed to win.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Ham says the car now is not situated to them - it does U turns instead of V as he likes. Hampers his performance quite a bit.

It doesn't matter how the Benz turns . As I said they won 3 from the last 4 races.

LEW and Roscoe are used to whine .

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

It doesn't matter how the Benz turns . As I said they won 3 from the last 4 races.

LEW and Roscoe are used to whine .

I guess Lewis is just so good, he can even drive ways that are opposite the way he normally drives, and still win.

Max on the other hand had a meltdown, crash and multiple non podiums despite having the fastest car. Maybe he should try whining.

[MJE60]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I guess Lewis is just so good, he can even drive ways that are opposite the way he normally drives, and still win.

Max on the other hand had a meltdown, crash and multiple non podiums despite having the fastest car. Maybe he should try whining.

Why should VER whine when you can have a f*****g tantrum? Leave the whining to the team, as soon as they lose a race everyone else is cheating

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by ptack

You have to understand that every driver drives different. For example in any race drivers may take slightly different lines and approaches to corners. Each team brings 2 cars that are essentially the same, but they will likely be tweaked to best align with each driver. The priority in car development, however, may focus on the lead driver - if there is one, but definitely if one is a current or former world champion. What this means is that in some instances the car inherently may be more optimized for one team driver rather than the other. In addition, each driver has different strengths, physical abilities and personalities.

Earlier post quoting Albon's personal experience:

Originally Posted by Artemis

It's different. It's about the personal driving style and car set-ups. Each driver has his own driving style. In a perfect world a driver and his team manage to spec and fine-tune a car in a way that perfectly suits the driver's personal driving style, allowing on track to squeeze the best out of the available package. Also, track layout, weather conditions, etc. so many parameters.

A couple of months ago, Verstappen's former team mate Alex Albon basically explained that it's hard to keep up with Verstappen's evolution during a season - he operates on a different level with increasingly fine-tuned set-ups.

"The first thing is, a lot of people say that car is built around him [Max Verstappen], he’s kind of like the Michael Schumacher of Ferrari, he’s created this team around him. Truthfully, the car is what it is, he is very quick, so what ends up happening is… He has quite a unique driving style, it’s not that easy to get along with.
Everyone has a driving style, I would say my driving style [Alex Albon] is a bit more on the smooth side, but I like a car that has a good front-end, so quite sharp, quite direct. Max does too, but his level of sharp and direct is a whole different level – it’s eye-wateringly sharp.
To give people kind of maybe an explanation of what that might feel like, if you bump up the sensitivity [on a computer mouse] completely to the max and you move that mouse and it’s just darting across the screen everywhere, that’s kind of how it feels. It becomes so sharp that it makes you a little bit tense.
What ended up happening was, especially during my year, you start off being a little bit behind, but not by much, and then as the season goes on, Max wants this front-end in the car, he wants his car to be sharper, sharper. As it goes sharper and sharper, he goes quicker and quicker, and for you to catch up you have to start taking a little bit more risk. You might be a couple of tenths behind one session, just try a little bit more, ‘OK, I’ve gone off, I’ve had a crash’, and you’ve got to restart. Then you’ve lost a little bit of confidence, it takes a little bit more time, that gap is growing a little bit, and the next time you try and go out and do another job, [it’s] another spin or another whatever – it just starts to snowball. Every time the car becomes sharper and sharper, you start to become more tense.
It’s like any sport, if you start to not be in that flow state, and you’re having to really think about it, and every time you go into a corner, you don’t know how it’s going to react, you don’t have that kind of… It’s purely the confidence in the car, the flow. It doesn’t work, it never works."

See 00:01 - 02:37:

Driving style: Max Verstappen versus Michael Schumacher:

Peculiar driving style habit from karting days: in F1 racing and sim racing, Verstappen still briefly twitches his right foot everytime when positioning it on the throttle pedal: https://youtube.com/shorts/T8tr0-TetD0

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

It's the money that makes it fast!

Well...

Mazepin:

Ide:

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Well...Mazepin:

I'll see your Mazepin and raise you a Pastor Maldonado

Look, money doesn't guarantee success but the lack of money does guarantee failure.

[HeelToeShift]

I agree it's a little of both but I think it varies by era.

Certainly since 2022 where F1 has been the single most competitive up and down the grid with the tightest field the sport has ever seen, along with the most talent at one time, the driver accounts for more than ever (maybe it's 50/50 or 60/40 driver/car) but driving ground effect cars is quite different in how you approach driving. Some have said the ones who can excel at GE cars are simply a on another level due to how smooth the driver is in the friction circle.

From 2014-2021 - this was easily by and large car (80% car if not more). When you have the horsepower advantage MB had, it didnt take much more than just any driver to win. I believe anyone with any bit of motorsports experience would have been able to win in this car and there are MANY others drivers who would have put up better stats in this car than what was achieved due to better skill, talent, and consistency.

Prior to this, I think it was a mixed bag. Schumacher won in some pretty dominant cars, but also drove some really bad cars to great success. Prior to even that, I think the driver was the primary component but certainly way before my time.

[dfox]

Car, driver, both nearly equally important. That's the F1 difference, otherwise watch Indy, which is more driver based. Gets a little to nascar-ified for me though. Too many cars on the road leads to diluted driver performance and lots of crashes.

The dynamic at RB with Max and Checo is pretty telling. Beginning of last year, Checo was winning races, even over Max in some cases. That fell apart as they started changing the car and getting farther out of Checo's comfort zone. This year seems to be more of the same, except the RB isn't the fastest car on the grid so more drivers are slotting in between Max and Checo.

McLaren's story this year is also telling that the car makes a big difference. They're destroying the field right now. Lando is still the more talented driver, but we are all watching Piastri learn and catch up to Lando quickly. I think it's just a year or so before we see Lando plateau and Piastri and Max become the next big rivalry, as long as the cars stay reasonably close in performance.

Hamilton falling from grace and coming back recently with a better performing car is also telling.

[Dégoûté]

Only a driver can know the track.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by dfox

Car, driver, both nearly equally important. That's the F1 difference, otherwise watch Indy, which is more driver based. Gets a little to nascar-ified for me though. Too many cars on the road leads to diluted driver performance and lots of crashes.

The dynamic at RB with Max and Checo is pretty telling. Beginning of last year, Checo was winning races, even over Max in some cases. That fell apart as they started changing the car and getting farther out of Checo's comfort zone. This year seems to be more of the same, except the RB isn't the fastest car on the grid so more drivers are slotting in between Max and Checo.

McLaren's story this year is also telling that the car makes a big difference. They're destroying the field right now. Lando is still the more talented driver, but we are all watching Piastri learn and catch up to Lando quickly. I think it's just a year or so before we see Lando plateau and Piastri and Max become the next big rivalry, as long as the cars stay reasonably close in performance.

Hamilton falling from grace and coming back recently with a better performing car is also telling.

If Piastri can't be Norris, who was handily beat by Sainz, he's not touching Max.

Ham's fall from grace is exactly what this thread is about. No one is taking a midfield car to the podium on a regular basis without some favorable circumstances helping them. RB and McLaren are the quickest cars on the grid and Max hasn't won in 4 races, including 2 he lost to Hamilton in a significantly slower car.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Full disclosure: I tune in to F1 very infrequently. That's because, I think, and as one who does tune-in only rarely, most of what I've observed have been processions. That is, little in the way of what I think of as racing.

Having observed from afar the vagaries of total studs' results after changing teams, a total noob like myself feels compelled to ask the experts: is it more about the driver, the car, or some identifiable and communicable combination of the two?

My purpose in asking is that I'm a very technically oriented person, and I'd like to get enthused about F1 if there's space in there for me to do so.

All replies gratefully accepted!

50:50 Car/Driver.

The car can be amazing but it doesn't matter if you're unable to drive it to its potential.

Some drivers have an easier time adapting their style to the car and managing the workload.

Think Max vs Checo.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

50:50 Car/Driver.

The car can be amazing but it doesn't matter if you're unable to drive it to its potential.

Some drivers have an easier time adapting their style to the car and managing the workload.

Think Max vs Checo.

and think Max in recent races.

it's both.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by G30M

and think Max in recent races.

it's both.

I'd say that brake bias issue hurt them both but Max still ahead of Checo.