Car and Driver - Exploring Why BMW Steering Feel No Longer Excels

[OutlawX3M]

I wonder if this is just the 1.0 version of the EPS and in short time we'll have a 2.0 version with more "natural feedback". At some point in development, you have to just put a stake in the ground and say "we're shipping this, we can evolve it later".

Sure there's limits to this evolution based on the hardware in place yet I'm a firm believer that if there's room for improvement, it will be made either by the manufacturer or some 3rd party.

[David70]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

BMW is luxury. It's a sportier version of a Lexus. But it's still a luxury-based vehicle.

So, when you that great steering feel is "preferable", it's preferable to who? Most BMW owners aren't longing for the days of excellent feedback through the steering wheel. It's a select few. Us.

Do you think most BMW owners want to 'feel the road' as they're driving around town running errands? I'd venture to guess that most simply want an isolated, luxurious experience (just like a Lexus), but they bought the BMW because of prestige and aesthetics and some semblance of a more sporty driving experience when they occasionally want it.

The future is electric-assisted steering, and it's going to take a few model generations before it's perfected...hec, Porsche is still tinkering and tweaking their's too.

In the meantime, BMW is in the business of selling and/or leasing as many cars as possible. The few customers they lose because of the loss of steering feel pales in comparison to the ones they gain because of all their advanced technology giving way to a more "luxurious" experience (more luxurious than even Lexus at times).

As they said, possibly a good business decision as a whole but from the enthusiast standpoint they don't like it. Also tough to go away from what made you great and towards what everyone else does and still remain different and premium. I see less reason to select their product over others as they remove the reasons I used to buy it and once it drives like a Lexus I might as well buy a Lexus as the price and reliability are better.

Pretty much what happens to most major chain restaurants, spicy food isn't very spicy, most flavors are muted, they don't worry about the fringe consumer and just focus on the overall population and selling to the masses. This is essentially what you end up with when you survey a large number of people, very few really like very spicy food so take it off the menu (get hot wings at Applebee's and realize most don't want them hot).

Seems like the correct "packages" could provide everything to everyone. Magazines would only be provided with the "Sport" package, they would love the steering feel, weight of the steering and firmer suspension, enthusiasts would buy it and mainstream buyers could get the standard car.

[insanecoder]

Heres the problem:
"My personal opinion is, we’re providing enough feedback to our mainstream customers"
..soccer moms who are driver aficionado wannabes
At the very least they should put hydraulic back into the Ms and the top variants of the 3 & 5 series.. the 340i.. how many soccer moms and people who drive a BMW for the badge get the top level engine?

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by David70

As they said, possibly a good business decision as a whole but from the enthusiast standpoint they don't like it. Also tough to go away from what made you great and towards what everyone else does and still remain different and premium. I see less reason to select their product over others as they remove the reasons I used to buy it and once it drives like a Lexus I might as well buy a Lexus as the price and reliability are better.

Pretty much what happens to most major chain restaurants, spicy food isn't very spicy, most flavors are muted, they don't worry about the fringe consumer and just focus on the overall population and selling to the masses. This is essentially what you end up with when you survey a large number of people, very few really like very spicy food so take it off the menu (get hot wings at Applebee's and realize most don't want them hot).

Seems like the correct "packages" could provide everything to everyone. Magazines would only be provided with the "Sport" package, they would love the steering feel, weight of the steering and firmer suspension, enthusiasts would buy it and mainstream buyers could get the standard car.

I agree, but it's all about the bottom line.
For every one of us that love the traditional BMW feel that we get in our Z4M and E46 M3 there are a one hundred or more others that are the current marketing target.
It's all about the $$$$

That said, don't sell EPS short just yet and what can be done with software.
There is still a lot to be learned but I believe its possible to make both markets happy by having different 'modes' available.
They've done it on other systems, so why not steering as well.
.....I hope that BMW gets the message.

[the dope steez]

Originally Posted by SDH

I wonder why they can't or won't offer a few pre programmed tunes for the driver to select him or herself? I'm sure it could be done?

To this point, my dad just recently bought a Tesla, and like most high end sedans it has different settings for steering feel. We have played around with all of them but in all honestly none match the hydraulic feel of my E90. When you crank it up to sport mode (heaviest), it feels like the wheel is just adding artificial resistance, and not giving the driver any added feel. Put it in comfort mode and it's just way too sloppy. The car is a feat of engineering but in my opinion does not match my E90 in terms of steering feel.

[StatenEye]

Steering in my F10 535i was comfortable and smooth. Steering in my X5M is precise and raw. Both are good, no complaints.

[SDH]

Originally Posted by the dope steez

To this point, my dad just recently bought a Tesla, and like most high end sedans it has different settings for steering feel. We have played around with all of them but in all honestly none match the hydraulic feel of my E90. When you crank it up to sport mode (heaviest), it feels like the wheel is just adding artificial resistance, and not giving the driver any added feel. Put it in comfort mode and it's just way too sloppy. The car is a feat of engineering but in my opinion does not match my E90 in terms of steering feel.

Yup, got my answer of sorts from the guys at work (for our systems anyway) in that the ecu's typically have capability of 32 partitions to hold 32 different steering dynamics for the different versions of the same platform. It just seems no manufacturers want to have multiple settings for the same version

[Z K]

Originally Posted by the dope steez

To this point, my dad just recently bought a Tesla, and like most high end sedans it has different settings for steering feel. We have played around with all of them but in all honestly none match the hydraulic feel of my E90. When you crank it up to sport mode (heaviest), it feels like the wheel is just adding artificial resistance, and not giving the driver any added feel. Put it in comfort mode and it's just way too sloppy. The car is a feat of engineering but in my opinion does not match my E90 in terms of steering feel.

My friend is a Tesla test engineer. I went with him and a few other Tesla engineers to a track day. They all brought older BMWs and my friend brought his C63 AMG.

I asked why they didn't drive Teslas. They laughed and said they weren't designed for performance, they are designed for people to commute to work. In order to make the Tesla Model S capable for track, they'd need to re-engineer the entire car. It can't even complete a lap before overheating.

[David70]

EDIT - Rereading the article it looks like like C&D's opinion is the lack of steering feedback is at least partially not related to a business decision and partly because of their lack of ability to provide it.

Then Kistler asked if I believe any current BMW provides the feedback I expect. When I answered no, he asked if that included current M models, especially the M2. I reported our deep appreciation of the M, sharing specific comments from our test of the 2016 M2 and our disappointment in that car’s distinct lack of feedback

I can't see the "soccer mom" comments being a reason to not provide the M2 with more feedback.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by David70

Rereading the article it looks like like C&D's opinion is the lack of steering feedback is less of a business decision and more of a lack of ability to provide it -



I can't see the "soccer mom" comments being a reason to not provide the M2 with more feedback.

I think they just recycled the steering from the M3/4 or from another BMW. They aren't going to create something specifically for the M2 - doing so would cost them a lot of money.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Z K

I think they just recycled the steering from the M3/4 or from another BMW. They aren't going to create something specifically for the M2 - doing so would cost them a lot of money.

Their opinion-

Then Kistler asked if I believe any current BMW provides the feedback I expect. When I answered no

[yousefnjr]

They'll still sell, they don't care about "feel." Dollar dollar bill y'all

[r3dbimmer89]

I think what the BMW engineers are confused about is the fact that we are asking for more feedback while they are focusing on the fact that the new EPS steering setups are more "accurate," which is true. Accuracy is important and my F80's steering is so quick and accurate it's almost telepathic but I sometimes can't feel what my front tires are doing when taking an on ramp at 85 MPH

The way this engineer responded shows the disconnect BMW has with its hardcore audience, which sometimes happens when you become number one. Look at GM, it took them 50 years to figure it out.

[DieGrüneHölle]

“My personal opinion is, we’re providing enough feedback to our mainstream customers. Some drive 30,000 miles per year in their BMWs, including long trips at high speeds. So the strongest demand we heard was, ‘Please reduce the steering effort.’ They seem to want more isolation.”

[georgere]

Originally Posted by Z K

You can program steering effort or steering speeds but feedback and feeling is based on how much of the road you can feel through the steering wheel. Unless you have some kind of mechanical device to engage/disengage, you can't change that via programming.

For most people driving on regular roads, having that kind of feedback is not needed. But when you're hanging corners on the limit of adhesion, that feedback is crucial to knowing how much tire grip you have and how/when the tires break away when traction is lost.

BS. My 30k e90 325 had better steering feel than my 75k f80 m3.
Regular Joe driver here.
People talk about some non-tangible sh;t on these forums. The same goes to journalist lying to our face and themselves so that they can get paid. In simple terms even non-car people can feel the difference in steering between generations.

[MA128]

I never track but enjoy the involvement of my car's HPAS. Feel also contributes to safety. Have you driven a Hyundai or Kia lately? I have no idea how people keep those cars in their lane.

[Fahrvergnügen]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Exactly.

And who blames them.

I'd venture to guess that 99% of all BMW owners never take their car to the limit on a regular basis, if at all. And likely, for their most hardcore enthusiasts (which we'll include in this group M owners), I bet 95%+ of us hardcore enthusiasts never track our cars either, thus never really reaching the upper limits of the car on a regular basis.

So, are they going to design a steering system for the select few who will take their cars to the limit, or the masses? I think it's a no-brainer.

BMW is a company that has stakeholders, and the stakeholders tell the engineers: "Fulfill the needs of the mainstream buyer, and attract new BMW loyalists."

Limited production vehicles like the M4 GTS are built for us pure enthusiasts, and by all accounts, it acquits itself nicely.

As cars continue to progress, certain elements will get lost in translation. But you can still find early model BMWs in good condition, for those of us that feel nostalgic and want the purity of the experience (complete with excellent steering feel).

Car companies must move forward, even though to some of us, it's a small step backwards.

It took quite some time to perfect the basic steering rack, so it will take some time to perfect electric steering too. Let's hope that when they do, cars aren't simply driving themselves.

True... but many people do buy cars (or products in general) based on emotional responses. BMW has always been known as the "sportier version" - more nimble, lighter, better steering, better acceleration, etc... and a lot of people still think that when buying a BMW over a Lexus, MB, Audi, etc. It only take a generation or two of cars to persuade people otherwise and when BMW loses their sporty concept to potential buyers... who know what will happen lol

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89

The way this engineer responded shows the disconnect BMW has with its hardcore audience, which sometimes happens when you become number one.

A different slant on this issue.

I note a few hardcore enthusiasts (not all) are hanging on to E46 & E9* models. These are not the primary customers BMW want and need. Users who are keeping up with the latest models could well be up to three or four new cars along, (in the last 10-years), buying or leasing. These are the customers BMW really need to keep in business.

In our current motoring climate how many users (including BMW enthusiasts) can even run the top models? Over here in the UK we are dominated by 4-pot diesel models, they are what sell and get leased. We've already compromised on many levels, steering 'feedback' is not the highest priority. CO2 figures and competitive lease deals are more the focus of attention for most users in this premium segment, even for BMW enthusiasts.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

I believe it CAN be done via software coding. At least that is what TuningWerk told me they did on their M235i with 444 Hp I drove a few years back. Even just driving the car a few meters... you could tell how much better that car's steering was over a stock car. Now granted they did have some KW custom suspension and upper strut mounts - but that car's steering was really amazing. They said most of the steering feel was all done via SW.

First Look and Taste of the Tuningwerk M235i Beast
http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=978175

Dackel

I think the BMW algorithm or method that they used of their steering simply was originally flawed.

They are improving it and making it better, and we are probably on BMW EPS version 4.0 right now. The first version came out on the x3 and the f30 and was horrible. It's been updated of course over time and we appear to be on the second M VERSION because the M2 is much better than the M3/M4.

Other manufacturers got their algorithms much more accurate from the get go, most notably Porsche and Honda.

I don't think EPS is the devil. Hopefully a few more iterations of the BMW version will have it improve to where it is close to mechanical feel.

The M2 is close but their still is no feedback from the wheels so you are steering somewhat in isolation

[Racer20]

I'm a suspension development engineer. I'm not a steering expert, but I deal with it enough to have a clue what this guy is talking about. BMW has not lost their way, and this guy isn't clueless. The real problem is this (From the article):

"Kistler responded: “Translated to German, the English word ‘feedback’ encompasses the car’s precision, how quickly it responds, basically everything the car does. It’s a large cake, while what you’re addressing is one thin, specific slice."

This isn't just a translation issue. "Feedback" is a very vague term. I've never heard a steering engineer talk about feedback or seen a "feedback" metric on an engineering document, because it's not a thing you can measure. You can measure steering effort, steering response, steering linearity, friction, damping, you can measure the vibrations that make their way into the steering wheel and the drivers hands. You can measure how all those things change with lateral g or vehicle speed, and how they relate to each other.

But "feedback" is not measurable because it doesn't have an objective definition. When enthusiasts talk about feedback, they are really talking about the sum of all the things I mention above, and how they combine to give the driver confidence that the car will do what they expect/want it to do.

My 2015 M3's steering was not that great from the factory. It required frequent mid-corner corrections, and it was difficult to tell how close I was to the limit. It didn't have any "feedback." But based on my evaluation of my own car, here's what was REALLY wrong with the M3 steering (pre 58.3):

1. The steering and dampers didn't work in unison. The car needs to change direction and roll at the same rate in order for the weight transfer to happen smoothly and naturally. Both of those things combine to give the car it's steering feel, and if they don't match, then the car simply won't steer well.

2. There was not enough damping in the steering calibration. When you put the car into a steady state corner, the self aligning torque of the tires was too strong for the force applied by the rack, so the car was always trying to return to straight ahead rather than holding a cornering line. Keeping the car steady mid-corner took too much effort and attention.

3. Factory alignments are ALWAYS off a bit. My total toe wasn't too far off, but the left and right rear tires were on opposite ends of the spec to get there. These details will DESTROY your steering. Specs are very wide to allow for manufacturing tolerances, but there's a massive difference between one end of the spec and the other in terms of steering. Get a GOOD alignment where everything is centered and left and right match. Follow BMW's specs for how to weight the car during the alignment. Your local tire shop won't do it right.

4. The damper tune itself was not that great and didn't work smoothly in roll. Since the body roll was not linear and balanced front-to-rear, and didn't match the steering efforts or direction change, it was very difficult to predict when the car was going to lose grip at either end.

#1, 2, and 3 combine to give the car "poor feedback." Sure enough, these are the main things they fixed with the 58.3 update. The update, along with a really good, dead-nuts nominal alignment, fixed the steering on my car, and I'd say it now has plenty of "feedback". Not in the sense that I feel every pebble (I don't want to and it's not necessary), but in the sense that driving the car now feels very natural, and I have a much better sense of where the tires limits are relative to what I'm asking them to do. The car is far more confidence inspiring.

Again, I'm not a steering engineer, but I've spent 15 years tuning suspensions, and getting the suspension to work in harmony with what the steering guys develop is a big part of my job.

tldr;

1. Feedback isn't a real thing . . . you don't engineer feedback, you engineer the precision, response, and linearity to give feedback.

2. If you think feedback means feeling the steering wheel vibrate over every pebble or crack, you're looking in the wrong place and you're going to be disappointed for the rest of your life, because those days are over.

3. Get a GOOD alignment. Check the results, make sure everything is in the center of the spec, not just somewhere within it.

4. EPS is very complex and relatively new. It's going to get better very quickly over the next couple generations of cars as engineers learn how to better optimize everything.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Fahrvergnügen

True... but many people do buy cars (or products in general) based on emotional responses. BMW has always been known as the "sportier version" - more nimble, lighter, better steering, better acceleration, etc... and a lot of people still think that when buying a BMW over a Lexus, MB, Audi, etc. It only take a generation or two of cars to persuade people otherwise and when BMW loses their sporty concept to potential buyers... who know what will happen lol

BMW still holds that position in the UK, Jaguar may be the closest for the enthusiast driver, (XE & XF as 3 & 5-series competitors), but the total package is still not there yet, so many will still go BMW as the product is still viewed as the best and preferred choice.

Audi and Merc are also going more for comfort, certainly for the 'cooking' UK models. Take the Audi A4, comfort is a key focus and selling point due to customer demand.

[kugasman]

Has anyone done a good analysis of the mechanical differences between eps and hydraulic systems? How about an analysis of Porsche vs BMW systems? Seems it should be possible to make an excellent steering system hat can be varied with software. (As already mentioned in multiple posts above.).

I'll second the opinion that this guy's answers are concerning but not surprising.