Armed Resource Officer on Campus during shooting

[TomD335xicoupe]

It was on videotape, the Chief spoke directly about what happened, and the officer resigned. Unless you are sure there is a misinformation campaign, not sure why some of the opinions in this threads are extremely suspect.
I am not sure about any of it , exactly my point.
Again you have no idea what was happening and why he made the decision he did nor do you know why the Chief would take the position he did.
I do not support this officer or the Chief I make the point that your opinions although real are baseless unless you have experience with this and were on the ground for this event and involved with first hand observations.

[eandy]

Been watching this unfold from the UK.

Question to some of those above defending him.

His job was in essence an 'Armed Response Officer'. He signed up for it and like most careers you know when you take on a role what your up against. The fact he failed his duty what was his actual role then? effectively surely he just got years of sitting around being paid for this moment only to not act at all.

I wouldn't for example sign up as a Fire Officer to then find out a building is burning down with kids to make the decision actually... I don't like hot things burning or smoke.

If he wanted to sit around on a chair perhaps he'd have been better placed inside the school as a teacher and let those hero teachers been the armed response role reversal would of probably been better.

Obviously the issue and fault lays with the shooter and the mentality behind it but after that people want to point fingers and in this case the chap has to be held partly accountable. Partly because yes he could of been killed and the situation identical but on the other side he could of potentially saved 1 or more lives.

[Spa2k]

He probably watched too many cop shows on TV, where the story line was “cop about to retire refuses to put himself in harm’s way.” The ones who do usually end up dead.

For whatever reason, he didn’t do his job - and children may have died because of it. It will be interesting to see what the sherriff’s investigation shows, but the speed with which he left the job sure offers a pretty strong clue. Now he just needs to live with himself.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by TomD335xicoupe

It was on videotape, the Chief spoke directly about what happened, and the officer resigned. Unless you are sure there is a misinformation campaign, not sure why some of the opinions in this threads are extremely suspect.
I am not sure about any of it , exactly my point.
Again you have no idea what was happening and why he made the decision he did nor do you know why the Chief would take the position he did.
I do not support this officer or the Chief I make the point that your opinions although real are baseless unless you have experience with this and were on the ground for this event and involved with first hand observations.

Do you even have a reason to offer of why the information reported by the Chief may have been inaccurate, intentional or otherwise? Bear in mind it was on videotape, the officer in question resigned and has since left town.

All we have to go on is the information reported, including a pretty direct statement by the Chief. But you are saying we shouldn't trust anything we've heard because we weren't there and haven't been in a similar situation?

[TrevorM3]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

So what should they be presumed to be able to handle?

making sure no kids steal from vending machines.

[Alfisti]

It's cowardly no doubt but fuck, in some ways i get it. Who gives a fuck what your "job" is if you're dead and a hand gun vs borderline military grade weaponry, meh ... a good portion of the population will do exactly what he did.

Unpopular on this forum but for the record, y'all are nuts down there with your guns and your military obsession, amazes me what i see on this forum at times.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by TrevorM3

making sure no kids steal from vending machines.

So what does the vice principal do?

[TomD335xicoupe]

RickFL, I understand your frustration and can see you feel strongly about your position, I can respect that, I also feel strongly about mine , why don't we just leave it at that.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by TomD335xicoupe

RickFL, I understand your frustration and can see you feel strongly about your position, I can respect that, I also feel strongly about mine , why don't we just leave it at that.

Ok agreed.

[Mingwan]

I can see how people are defending the guard. They’re right. Being in his position would have been shitty, and training doesn’t always translate into the real world. But it looks bad when an untrained teacher with no weapons or protection jumps in front of bullets to save kids. It looks bad when some ~15 y/o jrotc kid sacrificed his life in order to save the lives of others all while this “trained” guard who was armed, hid. But I kinda do feel bad for him as he’ll likely live out the rest of his life hanging his head in shame

[gatorfast]

I am blown away that there are people defending this guy as if he was just some random citizen who decided his own life was more important. He was an armed officer and his job was to protect the kids at school! He is a coward of the highest degree. Who knows how many lives could have been saved if he simply acted and engaged the shooter. Truly sickening to hear this.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by Mingwan

I can see how people are defending the guard. They’re right. Being in his position would have been shitty, and training doesn’t always translate into the real world. But it looks bad when an untrained teacher with no weapons or protection jumps in front of bullets to save kids. It looks bad when some ~15 y/o jrotc kid sacrificed his life in order to save the lives of others all while this “trained” guard who was armed, hid. But I kinda do feel bad for him as he’ll likely live out the rest of his life hanging his head in shame

Let me get this straight...you feel bad for him?! How about the 17 people that were murdered do you feel bad for them? This guy was a trained and armed officer who was there to protect the kids. Instead, he waited outside while the gunshots rang out and lives were taken because he was too much of a coward to engage the shooter - the job he was there to do.

[jgoens]

While some of us are debating gun control issues it is deeply troubling that there have been so many levels of law enforcement failure regarding the FL shooting.

Even though, I have been saying there is not a need for AR for civilians, the level of people not following through in their protective duties is paramount.

I have said before that guns do not kill people, people kill people and now we have people who are supposed to prevent this are letting people kill people.

[kprocivic]

People keep calling him a coward for not going in there guns blazing. I have never heard a officer going anywhere without backup. I mean they call for backup on traffic stops now you guys need to get real.

[schoy]

There is no non-military job (at least here in the US) that requires anyone to knowingly enter into a suicidal situation. None, not even a police officer, firefighter, or armed security guard. A police officer is not required to engage, by himself armed with a handgun, a group of perps armed with shotguns and assault rifles. A firefighter is not required to run into a burning building on the verge of collapse to save someone trapped in the building. A security guard at a bank is not required to try to take down a group of bank robbers armed with shotguns and body armor. In short, no one is required -- by law or by contract -- to play hero.

That being said, what this particular armed deputy was required to do would be spelled out in his job description. Again, it likely did not include confronting and shooting mass shooters armed with an AR-15. What it probably did include was investigating situations where student safety is a concern. So, if he did not know (or was not told yet by students running from the school) yet that shooter was armed with an AR-15, he probably had a duty to investigate and to assist students to safety. If he failed this duty, then yes, it is reasonable to claim dereliction of duty.

However, to be clear, at the point at which, during his investigation and assistance, he saw the shooter and determined that he had inferior firepower, he had no duty to exchange gunfire and had every right to get the heck out of there.

EDIT: Also, we should not be comparing his actions to the actions of the teachers who died protecting or shielding their students. If we do that, then what about the teachers that DIDN'T shield their students? Did they fail in their duty?

[Maynard]

Aside from what people think about this officer's reactions, this is a very direct argument against the clichéd arguments to 'arm the teachers' or that 'a good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun'. This was a decorated and experienced law officer, and having him on scene did not stop the shooting. Perhaps he was just a pogue who was waiting out his time, but nothing in his record would tell you that - he's probably much more qualified than a lot of the school security who are not former LEOs (and I think it is unfair to judge him in hindsight and from a distance). Even with full combat training, good men will often react poorly when first fired upon in these situations - soldiers usually get practice, but cops may only do this once or twice in their entire career. The idea of having dozens of poorly trained teachers firing randomly is a nightmare, not a solution (not to mention that every delinquent in the school will be trying to filch their guns - they won't even have to go all the way down the street to the stop-n-shop for a gun).

[Spa2k]

Originally Posted by schoy

If we do that, then what about the teachers that DIDN'T shield their students? Did they fail in their duty?

Absolutely not. Most of the teachers were probably following training and protocols by barricading themselves in closets or classrooms and doing whatever else they were supposed to do.

[schoy]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

Absolutely not. Most of the teachers were probably following training and protocols by barricading themselves in closets or classrooms and doing whatever else they were supposed to do.

Exactly. And if it turns out that this armed security officer was trained per company protocols to not engage an armed shooter, then I don't see how anyone could blame him for not shooting the guy.

[mrmoua2u]

Because of Columbine in 1999, all LE agencies are required to produce an active shooter response program and to follow their department P/Ps.

It is also taught and required all LE officers to engage the active shooter even when there is no back up. There are situations you can tactically retreat and stand back for the cavalry but in an active shooter situation with high potential life lost within a few seconds to a minute, agencies requires you to engage the threat.

Yes, its sad the officer/deputy was a coward. He will live with his mistake for the rest of his life.

[schoy]

Originally Posted by mrmoua2u

Because of Columbine in 1999, all LE agencies are required to produce an active shooter response program and to follow their department P/Ps.

It is also taught and required all LE officers to engage the active shooter even when there is no back up. There are situations you can tactically retreat and stand back for the cavalry but in an active shooter situation with high potential life lost within a few seconds to a minute, agencies requires you to engage the threat.

Yes, its sad the officer/deputy was a coward. He will live with his mistake for the rest of his life.

I don't believe that is true in all police departments. My understanding is that some department protocols allow (but does not require) a solo LEO to move to stop the threat. Some policies give some discretion to the first officer on the scene, and many policies require that a "contact" team be formed to first asses the threat before entry. I believe the Police Executive Research Forum (PERF) did a study on active shooter protocols in 2014.

Here you go:
http://www.policeforum.org/assets/do...nts%202014.pdf

[FlaPatsFan]

What hasn’t been mentioned is the “human element”....which is exactly what we saw in this matter. You can train all you want, have every intent to do your job, be the best prepared....but you can’t anticipate what each individual officer or person will do in the face of death and danger.

Yes LEOs take an oath to protect and serve, but unless you have been an LEO you have no idea what it’s like to walk in their shoes. It is a daunting task they take on 24/7/365. You are never truly off duty.

LEOs are not robots, and we cannot expect them to be. Every Dept in Florida varies with how they decide to train and arm their Deputies/Officers from basic calls to active shooter incidents.

To run into danger when everyone else is running out is not natural, 99% of most ppl will never face a situation like that in their life time. But LEOs can be faced with that at any moment. The mental and psychological strength it takes to over ride those primal instincts are hard to rewire.

I do not agree with the decision that Deputy made, and being he was a 30yr vet he was at the end of his career (Florida Retirement System is 25yr to recieve full pension) he probably never expected to encounter this type of situation. But today it can happen anytime anywhere any place whether it’s your first day on the job or last.

So in summary there will always be the human element. And there is no way to predict it.

[Lucky John]

It seems a little early to make a judgement on this. As more information comes out it will be interesting to look at. It is starting to look like he was not the only Officer to arrive that did not make entry. Read the attached article it is claiming up to four Officers did not enter and it wasn't until Officers from Coral Springs arrived that a contact team went in. Appalling. Once you have a Rapid Intervention Team or Contact Team, usually four or five, you go in.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/so...cid=spartanntp