Condo Collapse

[zx10guy]

Sadly, this isn't as uncommon as you might think. I worked with a Federal Government client where they were leasing a good chunk of a office building. Come to find out the building got condemned when someone one day found a chunk of concrete had fallen from the overhang above the front entrance. Building inspectors were called in to take a look. They immediately condemned the building and ordered everyone out of it. For a few weeks, only essential personnel were allowed into the building and only for an hour or so until they fixed the structural failure.

This incident happened about 5 or so years ago in the DC Metro area and didn't make the news.

[Humdizzle]

i can only imagine the amount of litigation that will come out of this. These condos aren't exactly cheap either, on their website it looks like each one is nearly 600-700k. hopefully residents who were directly or indirectly affected get compensation, especially if there was negligence involved

[sspade]

The latest:

"... was determined to be on unstable land a year ago, according to a researcher at Florida International University."

"The building, which was constructed in 1981, has been sinking at an alarming rate since the 1990s, according to a study in 2020 by Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment."


"The county requires commercial and multifamily buildings to be recertified every 40 years. The process involves electrical and structural inspections for a report to be filed with the town. It was underway for the condominium building but had not been completed, town officials said Thursday."


"In 2015, a lawsuit alleged building management failed to maintain an outside wall, resulting in water damage and cracks."

Cracked walls or shifting foundations can be clues that sinking has affected the stability of a structure, according to Matthys Levy, a consulting engineer, professor at Columbia University and author of “Why Buildings Fall Down: How Structures Fail.”




https://www.yahoo.com/news/collapsed...181026431.html

[rwheels]

In that moment, this much collapsed.

[TrevorM3]

The HOA's down here steal all the money, how can any building be upkept? Nobody cares as long as they line their pockets. But innocent lives were lost now, so just maybe, maybe, something will change..

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

i can only imagine the amount of litigation that will come out of this. These condos aren't exactly cheap either, on their website it looks like each one is nearly 600-700k. hopefully residents who were directly or indirectly affected get compensation, especially if there was negligence involved

That is pretty inexpensive for oceanfront on / near Miami Beach.

We'll have to see who is at fault. Best bet for recovery for victims and families is government fault, government assistance and charity. No way original builder will be held financially responsible and HOA won't have funds to pay. Difficult to really assess that part with such limited information right now.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

That is pretty inexpensive for oceanfront on / near Miami Beach.

We'll have to see who is at fault. Best bet for recovery for victims and families is government fault, government assistance and charity. No way original builder will be held financially responsible and HOA won't have funds to pay. Difficult to really assess that part with such limited information right now.

i agree not that much for the location. just stating that these people at least have the money to hire a good lawyer, make noise, and get a full investigation to get adequate compensation.

if this happened in the projects somewhere the govt would probably just try to sweep everything under the rug and prolong the litigation until the families can't afford it and offer a small severance package.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

i agree not that much for the location. just stating that these people at least have the money to hire a good lawyer, make noise, and get a full investigation to get adequate compensation.

if this happened in the projects somewhere the govt would probably just try to sweep everything under the rug and prolong the litigation until the families can't afford it and offer a small severance package.

Not sure about that. If there is money involved, there will be a line of attorneys ready to “help” for a piece of it no matter who or where. No one should be out of pocket for legal fees. Further, if you mix social justice opportunity in, I expect there would be plenty of parties getting involved, both public and private.

[M5Rick]

I was on holiday staying at 5101 Collins Avenue Miami beach hotel further up from there in '18.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by TrevorM3

The HOA's down here steal all the money, how can any building be upkept? Nobody cares as long as they line their pockets. But innocent lives were lost now, so just maybe, maybe, something will change..

I did some napkin math on the revenue my buildings HOA brings in annually and it came out to like $2.2 Mil since the building had around 350 units.

There are only like 5 people on staff at any given time, so that at most is 250K... how much can insurance, inspections, TV and cable, sewer and water cost for a building like this? Maybe.... another $2k per unit annually at most?

Where does the other $1 million bucks go? Again, those are some very very conservative estimates?

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I did some napkin math on the revenue my buildings HOA brings in annually and it came out to like $2.2 Mil since the building had around 350 units.

There are only like 5 people on staff at any given time, so that at most is 250K... how much can insurance, inspections, TV and cable, sewer and water cost for a building like this? Maybe.... another $2k per unit annually at most?

Where does the other $1 million bucks go? Again, those are some very very conservative estimates?

My guess is insurance alone is over $2K per unit and possibly a lot more if near the water / in a flood zone. Maintenance, cleaning, insurance, repairs, security, reserves, etc. They are supposed to provide a budget everyone every year, with an opportunity to question it.

[ASAP]

I've been thinking about this situation a little more-

I suppose building collapses are not entirely common but they do happen... as with any structure. What's interesting is that there seems to be no procedure for something like this... again that's easier said than done but I would expect some sort of large / heavy machine ready to lift rubble like a crane setup etc etc... it seems the best we got is Backhoes and Catterpillars... looking at this situation, there seems to be no saving people in time as when 3 days pass... usually that is your need for water.

[RickFLM4]

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...252385083.html

[TiMSport]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...252385083.html

Saw that in the news. I can't help but wonder how many other buildings that were built around the same era could face something similar.

[ASAP]

i'd be willing to bet its a combo of the above structural flaws when built and inadequate inspections / fixes where obvious issues where present...

If I was living on other older buildings on the beach, i'd be quite concerned. This whole thing could have massive repercussions related to inspections and how quick HOAs must agree and fix things.

[M5Rick]

Last I read in DM it was the waterproofing from the swimming pool that wasn't adequate with water seeping down to the car park through the structure walls rotting the steel rod supports causing eventual failure.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I did some napkin math on the revenue my buildings HOA brings in annually and it came out to like $2.2 Mil since the building had around 350 units.

There are only like 5 people on staff at any given time, so that at most is 250K... how much can insurance, inspections, TV and cable, sewer and water cost for a building like this? Maybe.... another $2k per unit annually at most?

Where does the other $1 million bucks go? Again, those are some very very conservative estimates?

Ask for a copy of the budget. They will have a detailed breakdown of annual running costs and how the monthly HOA contribution breaks out.

[ryan stewart]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I did some napkin math on the revenue my buildings HOA brings in annually and it came out to like $2.2 Mil since the building had around 350 units.

There are only like 5 people on staff at any given time, so that at most is 250K... how much can insurance, inspections, TV and cable, sewer and water cost for a building like this? Maybe.... another $2k per unit annually at most?

Where does the other $1 million bucks go? Again, those are some very very conservative estimates?

You could always join the board and find out.

Ours mostly goes to insurance and water, huge bills. And then we have to save up large chunks for projects like roads, structural maintenance, etc. I've never been involved in a high rise HOA but I suspect it's even worse.

Thing is this place is going to be all the way into the HOA being 40 years old. If the builder even still exists pinning this on them is going to be a big ask.

[sspade]

Experts weigh in on likely cause:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...252396233.html

[lemetier]

Not even remotely close to a cause. The issues noted in Field Reports are not indicative of structural design flaws, but of extremely poor association stewardship for the past 25+ years. As poor as the general conditions were, they were not severe enough to indicate an imminent collapse. Evaluating the effects of continuous sea water inundation into below grade parking facilities is a top priority. The bottom of slab elevation in this building is slightly below the MHW (Average High Tide) level. During MHWS (Average Spring High Tide), sea water began entering the lower parking level from below. During HAT (King Tide), the parking level flooded with sea water up to 2' despite mobile sump pumps operating. This means the piling caps have been immersed in saltwater for a decade or more.

Originally Posted by ASAP

i'd be willing to bet its a combo of the above structural flaws when built and inadequate inspections / fixes where obvious issues where present...

If I was living on other older buildings on the beach, i'd be quite concerned. This whole thing could have massive repercussions related to inspections and how quick HOAs must agree and fix things.

There aren't any obvious red flag structural design flaws apparent so far. NIST is leading the forensic structural investigation of the building with assistance from the Army Corps of Engineers and FEMA. There is some concern about the subsurface that may have gone undetected. Two people were in the garage at the time of the first failure and managed to escape before the second and third collapses occurred. This event is going to change the RE system as a whole in Miami-Dade.

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Last I read in DM it was the waterproofing from the swimming pool that wasn't adequate with water seeping down to the car park through the structure walls rotting the steel rod supports causing eventual failure.

No specific why, just an approximate where. The area I circled in red is where the focus will begin.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by lemetier

Not even remotely close to a cause. The issues noted in Field Reports are not indicative of structural design flaws, but of extremely poor association stewardship for the past 25+ years. As poor as the general conditions were, they were not severe enough to indicate an imminent collapse. Evaluating the effects of continuous sea water inundation into below grade parking facilities is a top priority. The bottom of slab elevation in this building is slightly below the MHW (Average High Tide) level. During MHWS (Average Spring High Tide), sea water began entering the lower parking level from below. During HAT (King Tide), the parking level flooded with sea water up to 2' despite mobile sump pumps operating. This means the piling caps have been sitting in saltwater for a decade or more.




There aren't any obvious red flag structural design flaws apparent so far. NIST is leading the forensic structural investigation of the building with assistance from the Army Corps of Engineers and FEMA. There is some concern about the subsurface that may have gone undetected. This event is going to change the RE system as a whole in Miami-Dade.




No specific why, just an approximate where. The area I circled in red is where the focus will begin.

One things for sure is that saltwater will always exacerbate a potential flaw such as this..we were staying seven storeys up in hotel nearly on top at 5101 Collins Avenue couple years ago and that was a replacement hotel accommodation.
When we first arrived we were informed our original hotel in another part of Collins Ave had fire damage and stayed a night in a spartan Ocean Drive accommodation,a ''lively'' part of town I must say but after a few phone calls we got a much better room at 5101 with it's own private beach with refund for taxi's etc.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by lemetier

Not even remotely close to a cause. The issues noted in Field Reports are not indicative of structural design flaws, but of extremely poor association stewardship for the past 25+ years. As poor as the general conditions were, they were not severe enough to indicate an imminent collapse. Evaluating the effects of continuous sea water inundation into below grade parking facilities is a top priority. The bottom of slab elevation in this building is slightly below the MHW (Average High Tide) level. During MHWS (Average Spring High Tide), sea water began entering the lower parking level from below. During HAT (King Tide), the parking level flooded with sea water up to 2' despite mobile sump pumps operating. This means the piling caps have been immersed in saltwater for a decade or more.




There aren't any obvious red flag structural design flaws apparent so far. NIST is leading the forensic structural investigation of the building with assistance from the Army Corps of Engineers and FEMA. There is some concern about the subsurface that may have gone undetected. Two people were in the garage at the time of the first failure and managed to escape before the second and third collapses occurred. This event is going to change the RE system as a whole in Miami-Dade.




No specific why, just an approximate where. The area I circled in red is where the focus will begin.

"The bottom slab is below average high tide." "During King Tide the structure was immersed in 2' of seawater." Sounds like a structural design flaw. Either the construction company did not build the structure to the engineering design, or the engineering design was not adequate.