Hagerty - "The Secret BMW M8 Is The Only V12 Powered M-Car Ever Made"

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by ledphut

All car other reviewers bow down to Harry Metcalf.

Not nearly. Old fart with too much money.

[M3N4CE]

Really

Jason Chamisa is the epitome of a non biased car enthusiast.

Let that sink in and digest it. before spewing nonsens.

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

Jason's great, love this series as well, and I don't find him cringy at all.

You want cringy, try Doug Demuro. I mean, I can't even watch him let alone listen to him.

THIS!
is correct

[hufington]

It was a handsome car so that means it's almost impossible for BMW to create a car even slightly similar to it with the current BMW design language.

[VR1]

Unfortunate that most on here are more concerned with the host than content but I found the video awesome - I had no idea about the history of this car

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I think he's always uncomfortable and cringy to watch. He's mansplaining things to other car enthousiasts that probably know just as much and he's not really funny.

I also think he's wrong on this video, claiming that the 850csi is actually an M8. The S70B56 engine in that car isn't really special other than being a V12 (despites it's S code).
It produces 375HP, which equates to around 67HP/liter, and that is not a special number. The bog standard 90's 2,8L I6 from BMW (M52B28) that was sold literally by the millions in so many models has the same specific power output (68HP/L).
The (eurospec) E36 M3 (with S50B32) had 321HP from 3,2L, so 100HP/L. Thàt was a number that spoke to the imagination at that time and could only be matched by true exotics from that era like Ferrari (and thus totally different priceclass), or the McLaren F1 for that matter. Engines like this should power M cars.
The euro E36 M3 was also faster in the 0-100kph sprint than the 850CSi (5,5sec versus 5,9sec).
However it did came with an LSD and semi floating brake rotor's (on the front axle that is), so it's more of 'half an M car'. But such things aren't really pointed out in the video.

For the real M8...check out this video that came out yesterday from dutch carjournalist Sjoerd van Bilsen; he shows the real M8, with shots from under the hood and in the boot and tells some very interesting facts.
Real quality carjournalism if you ask me (he starts off with a McLaren F1 and it's engine):

(obviously this video is in Dutch, but with autotranslate you can get an idea of what he's saying. He always has video's with really interesting carfacts that most people don't know)

Cammissa just has no wit. Typical US whitebread humor. No comedic timing, etc. Like comparing the US version of The Office to the Brit version.

Anyways, thanks for this vid. The real M8.

[deemo319]

Originally Posted by ledphut

All car other reviewers bow down to Harry Metcalf.

I agree about Harry. His trek to the mountains in the Ferrari Purosangue is one of my favorites. And when his buddy loaned him a Bugatti Chiron is incredible.

Henry is fantastic at what he does as well and my favorite. Watch the Carfection episode where he drives an E61 M5 Touring with a manual conversion from Everything M3’s that is awesome.

[DrVenture]

Originally Posted by erickonphoenix

Neither Doug or Jason bother me at all. I mean, they can't all be the SavageGeese.

"Now all restaurants are Taco Bell."

[BodegaBay]

Originally Posted by Chihuahua

Is it just me or can Jason Cammisa be slightly uncomfortable to watch sometimes? I.e., just a little overly animated but not bad enough to turn off. Cool car and decent video nonetheless. A better watch is the one prototype M8 BMW actually did produce.

It’s you

[JK479]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

Jason's great, love this series as well, and I don't find him cringy at all.

You want cringy, try Doug Demuro. I mean, I can't even watch him let alone listen to him.

Doug‘a cringe is driving all day to the bank. I agree too- I can’t watch the videos with sound.

[Marcoose]

Has anyone ever driven an E31 on a track ? Is it a proper performance car, M or not ?

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Evinrude1975

My 2 cents. If you don’t like Jason, Doug… just don’t watch them.

I don't. I am also allowed to share that I don't like certain personalities on the tube so that other people won't feel like they're the only ones, because the algorithm says these channels are and thus shall stay successful.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by 328dabi

The 850csi’s engine was massaged by the M division,

........

Prior to the euro spec 3.2l e36 m3, no m car made 100hp/l, and even that car fell shy of 100hp per/l if we convert to us standard bhp (316hp)

It doesn't have to make 100hp/L (sorry to calculate DIN HP on a german car brand, I don't know what came over me), but at least significantly more than the bog standard 68HP/L. That's not a value you want for a ///Motorsport inspired engine, you'd want at least 20-25% more specific power.
Even /M engines of that time, or even older /M engines got to that value. The first M5 in the mid 80's already had 82HP/L
The 68HP/l combined with the large 5,6L capacity is a fitting engine for a grand tourer, not a track inspired car.
For example, it is comparable to the Mercedes M120 6L V12 (394HP, so 66HP/L) as it is found in the 600SL and CL600 in the same era as the 850csi (early 90's). Great grand tourers for sure, but certainly not track inspired cars.

BMW was right to call it the 850CSI and not the M8. Maybe a car like the 850CSI would nowadays fit in the BMW M performance line. Quite a few of the M goodies and styling, but still a slight step under a full //M car.
Before there was the M performance line of cars, BMW struggled to fit cars like this under a separate branding (like for example Audi did earlier with the S line cars, S3 a step under the RS3 etc.)

[328dabi]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

It doesn't have to make 100hp/L (sorry to calculate DIN HP on a german car brand, I don't know what came over me), but at least significantly more than the bog standard 68HP/L. That's not a value you want for a ///Motorsport inspired engine, you'd want at least 20-25% more specific power.
Even /M engines of that time, or even older /M engines got to that value. The first M5 in the mid 80's already had 82HP/L
The 68HP/l combined with the large 5,6L capacity is a fitting engine for a grand tourer, not a track inspired car.
For example, it is comparable to the Mercedes M120 6L V12 (394HP, so 66HP/L) as it is found in the 600SL and CL600 in the same era as the 850csi (early 90's). Great grand tourers for sure, but certainly not track inspired cars.

BMW was right to call it the 850CSI and not the M8. Maybe a car like the 850CSI would nowadays fit in the BMW M performance line. Quite a few of the M goodies and styling, but still a slight step under a full //M car.
Before there was the M performance line of cars, BMW struggled to fit cars like this under a separate branding (like for example Audi did earlier with the S line cars, S3 a step under the RS3 etc.)

The 8 series was a Grand Touring car, not a track car by any stretch. Its nearest rival was Porsche’s 928 GTS which made 345hp (350din) with a 5.4L compared to the 850CSi’s 372 with a 5.6L. Claiming the 850CSi isn’t a true M due to it not meeting a hp/L standard you have created in your own mind is silly. The 850CSi is every bit an M car as the M3 and M5 of its day.

In the 90’s BMW’s M division for various reasons offered other low volume vehicles that fall more in line with your thinking. Unlike the 850CSi, their engines were no different when compared to standard models despite getting true m treatment elsewhere. ‘95 M540i/540i M sport, ‘94 325is M-Tech, ‘95 318Ti Clubsport to name a few.

For comparison, contemporary V12’s from other makes…jaguar’s 6.0L was rated at 313hp, Mercedes 6.0l 394hp, and of course there was the 436hp Ferrari 5.5L.

Grand touring cars weren’t design for hp/l…big torque numbers, smooth engines, effortless cruising, and style. You are missing the picture and what these vehicles were all about.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by 328dabi

Claiming the 850CSi isn’t a true M due to it not meeting a hp/L standard you have created in your own mind is silly.

It's not silly, I compare it's specific horsepower and it's comparable with bog standard I6 engines of its era BMW made by the millions put in dozens of models. It's nothing special in that regard whereas other real M cars had values way way above that. If you deny that...then you don't know your bmw's...

There is a reason BMW didn't call it the M8. Thinking someone knows better than BMW themselves...is something one could call silly....
Especially as BMW/ M division has researched and made a prototype of what an actual M8 would've looked like. Including a different, much stronger engine. See my video.

[328dabi]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

It's not silly, I compare it's specific horsepower and it's comparable with bog standard I6 engines of its era BMW made by the millions but in dozens of models. It's nothing special in that regard whereas other real M cars had values way way above that. If you deny that...then you don't know your bmw's...

There is a reason BMW didn't call it the M8. Thinking someone knows better than BMW themselves...is something one could call silly....

Sure there is, there is also a reason bmw called the us spec e36 m3 an m3 and not a 330CSi, and a reason the 2002 Turbo wasn’t badged an m2.

Doesn’t change the fact that the 850CSi is a grand touring car or the fact that it’s every bit an M car the e34 m5 and e36 m3 were. Like those vehicles, it also made more hp/l when compared to its main rivals.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by 328dabi

Doesn’t change the fact that the 850CSi is a grand touring car or the fact that it’s every bit an M car the e34 m5 and e36 m3 were. Like those vehicles, it also made more hp/l when compared to its main rivals.

The engine from the 850csi makes the same hp/l as the merc m120, or a bog standard M52b28 that was found in every bmw on every streetcorner. Nothing special in that regard.
Again, there's a reason why BMW didn't call it the M8. To say otherwise is silly.
Watch my video. The reporter meticulously explains what a real M8 would've looked like and where it all comes from.

[328dabi]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

The engine from the 850csi makes the same hp/l as the merc m120, or a bog standard M52b28 that was found in every bmw on every streetcorner. nothing special.
Again, there's a reason why BMW didn't call it the M8. To say otherwise is silly.
Watch my video. The reporter meticulously explains what a real M8 would've looked like and where it all comes from.

Repeating yourself won’t change the fact that the 850CSi is every bit an M car the e34 m5 and e46 m3 are. Literally.

Your hp/l argument is one you created in your own mind to justify your stance on the matter. The facts do not change. This is a grand touring car, and a car put out by BMW’s M division. The wild over the top exotic M8 in the video you posted is just that. A 1 off car that never saw production, just like the X5 m division built with that same engine.

The majority of journalists as well as enthusiasts and owners of these fine cars pretty much are all in Agreeance that this is an M car. They are internally known as the M8 much like the M3 lightweight is internally known as the CSL. They carry a BMW M VIN (starting with WBS clearly indicating it is an M vehicle) just like every real M built.

[GuidoK]

Just watch the video. He explains the multiple reasons why BMW didn't continue with the M8 project. That journalists and owners of the 850CSI think it's an M8 or call it that, doesn't make it an M8. BMW didn't call it an M8 for a reason (well, multiple reasons). They cancelled the M8 project. So no E31 M8.
If BMW had made an actual M8 production car, I think it would've gotten a far more modern and more powerful engine, and not an antiquated design with single overhead camshaft.

[Kevin_The_Clean1]

This sure was an awesome car & wish I could get my hands on one. Jason is much better & does far better car history presentations than the talking bobble head we know as Doug.

[mbanck]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Just watch the video.

Did you actually watch the video? The 850CSi has an M engine, an M VIN and an M8 designation on the german registration papers.

Whether or not that M engine makes X hp/l does not really matter or all that much, the point is they increased hp to a similar degree they did for other engines.

Not everything is black-and-white, but the 850 CSi should at least been called M860, but arguably could have been branded the M8 as well, if BMW/M wanted. Back then, they did not, so that is that.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by mbanck

Did you actually watch the video?

Yes of course.

but the 850 CSi should at least been called M860

Why?
Is the CSi badge not good enough?
The engine in the 850CSi is not really powerful, nor is it advanced (SOHC, 2 valves per cylinder, which was in the 90's already an antiquated system).

Back then, they did not, so that is that.

Indeed. So that is that.