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07-28-2024, 10:56 AM | #23 | |
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VER is still arguably the best talent on the grid today, but this whole "Max factor" is quite comical to any logical F1 fan. |
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RichardInCA4424.00 MJE60734.50 |
07-29-2024, 07:49 AM | #24 | |
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I do however ponder if RB are now paying for being overly complacent in 2023 due to some of all of the following factors; - Mercedes drastically underperforming and failing to fix design issues caused by regulation change the previous year, thus flattering RB advantage, and - financial caps and other F1A rules restricting ability of other top teams (more than previous years) to close the gap, and - as previously stated whether 2/10th-3/10th per lap edge was actually provided by VER ( who was benefitting from ideal conditions and therefore not having weaknesses exposed) thus flattered RB car advantage (e.g actually only 10+ secs rather than 20+ secs) to the extent they got complacent (or took design risks). It is interesting that once competitive pressure returned we see more aggressive tactics return, which could only get worse given other driver attitudes. Imo we will have to see several more races before drawing firm conclusions on top 4 car performance order. The last 4 races had very specific factors which may have flattered Mercedes (2 races probably won due to VER mistakes) and NOR really is making too many mistakes generally. Thoughts? Last edited by MJE60; 07-29-2024 at 08:06 AM.. |
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07-29-2024, 09:24 AM | #25 | |
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It's everything you mentioned. Red Bull like all successful teams (Mercedes, turbo/hybrid-era), you get a bit complacent, you lose staff to other teams and throw in the cost-cap, it shouldn't be a surprise to see Red Bull in an extended slump - it's just the cycle in F1 or in all professional sports. Everyone s--t the bed with the new regulations, it's only this year where teams have a better understanding and have finally caught up or surpassed Red Bull (McLaren) which contributed to RB winning 85% of races last year. We now have the most parity on the grid that we haven't seen in a while. Second half of the season should be interesting and fun. |
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RichardInCA4424.00 MJE60734.50 |
07-29-2024, 01:40 PM | #27 |
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Yes. It's both, more car than driver.
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07-30-2024, 04:04 PM | #28 |
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it's a combination of both in the right measure and the team and strat crew are important for sure.
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Pauly Wauly4227.00 ///M Power-Belgium69636.00 |
07-31-2024, 09:57 AM | #29 |
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It's kind of both - the car has to match the driver's driving style. For example, when Hamilton was dominating, they designed the car around him, with the longest wheel base of all the cars. The wheelbase was something like 30cm longer than his competitors (car length was the same, just the wheelbase increased). This was because he had such an aggresive turn in style, which was very fast, but unstable on a shorter wheelbase car.
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07-31-2024, 11:55 AM | #30 | |
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07-31-2024, 11:58 AM | #31 |
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You have to understand that every driver drives different. For example in any race drivers may take slightly different lines and approaches to corners. Each team brings 2 cars that are essentially the same, but they will likely be tweaked to best align with each driver. The priority in car development, however, may focus on the lead driver - if there is one, but definitely if one is a current or former world champion. What this means is that in some instances the car inherently may be more optimized for one team driver rather than the other. In addition, each driver has different strengths, physical abilities and personalities. Race results at the top are usually between teams with the best cars - period. It's rare for a second-tier team to win unless there are some special circumstances such as multiple DNFs. Fernando Alonso is an example of this - he's former world champion and unquestionably one of the most talented drivers in F1, but his car simply isn't on the same level with those of the top teams, so Alonso has to try and just be the best of the rest. On the other hand, Perez has basically the same car as Verstappen, but obviously does not have the same talent, though some of his difficultly may be that the car and team are primarily optimized for Verstappen. How much better might Perez do if he was the primary driver? It's impossible to say, but I think he would have better results, but not as good as Verstappen's because he doesn't seem to have the same pure talent.
Talent, skill, endurance and mindset matter a great deal, but winning races requires having the equipment and team support needed to win.
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07-31-2024, 12:09 PM | #32 | |
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LEW and Roscoe are used to whine .
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07-31-2024, 12:34 PM | #33 | |
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Max on the other hand had a meltdown, crash and multiple non podiums despite having the fastest car. Maybe he should try whining. |
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08-01-2024, 05:10 AM | #35 | |||
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Driving style: Max Verstappen versus Michael Schumacher: Peculiar driving style habit from karting days: in F1 racing and sim racing, Verstappen still briefly twitches his right foot everytime when positioning it on the throttle pedal: https://youtube.com/shorts/T8tr0-TetD0
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08-01-2024, 08:06 AM | #36 |
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08-01-2024, 08:12 AM | #37 |
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///M Power-Belgium69636.00 M5Rick68070.00 |
08-02-2024, 08:26 AM | #38 |
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I agree it's a little of both but I think it varies by era.
Certainly since 2022 where F1 has been the single most competitive up and down the grid with the tightest field the sport has ever seen, along with the most talent at one time, the driver accounts for more than ever (maybe it's 50/50 or 60/40 driver/car) but driving ground effect cars is quite different in how you approach driving. Some have said the ones who can excel at GE cars are simply a on another level due to how smooth the driver is in the friction circle. From 2014-2021 - this was easily by and large car (80% car if not more). When you have the horsepower advantage MB had, it didnt take much more than just any driver to win. I believe anyone with any bit of motorsports experience would have been able to win in this car and there are MANY others drivers who would have put up better stats in this car than what was achieved due to better skill, talent, and consistency. Prior to this, I think it was a mixed bag. Schumacher won in some pretty dominant cars, but also drove some really bad cars to great success. Prior to even that, I think the driver was the primary component but certainly way before my time. |
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08-06-2024, 12:59 PM | #39 |
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Car, driver, both nearly equally important. That's the F1 difference, otherwise watch Indy, which is more driver based. Gets a little to nascar-ified for me though. Too many cars on the road leads to diluted driver performance and lots of crashes.
The dynamic at RB with Max and Checo is pretty telling. Beginning of last year, Checo was winning races, even over Max in some cases. That fell apart as they started changing the car and getting farther out of Checo's comfort zone. This year seems to be more of the same, except the RB isn't the fastest car on the grid so more drivers are slotting in between Max and Checo. McLaren's story this year is also telling that the car makes a big difference. They're destroying the field right now. Lando is still the more talented driver, but we are all watching Piastri learn and catch up to Lando quickly. I think it's just a year or so before we see Lando plateau and Piastri and Max become the next big rivalry, as long as the cars stay reasonably close in performance. Hamilton falling from grace and coming back recently with a better performing car is also telling. |
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08-14-2024, 02:59 PM | #41 | |
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Ham's fall from grace is exactly what this thread is about. No one is taking a midfield car to the podium on a regular basis without some favorable circumstances helping them. RB and McLaren are the quickest cars on the grid and Max hasn't won in 4 races, including 2 he lost to Hamilton in a significantly slower car. |
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08-17-2024, 08:58 PM | #42 | |
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The car can be amazing but it doesn't matter if you're unable to drive it to its potential. Some drivers have an easier time adapting their style to the car and managing the workload. Think Max vs Checo.
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dradernh4823.50 ///M Power-Belgium69636.00 |
08-22-2024, 05:48 PM | #43 | |
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it's both. |
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08-22-2024, 08:15 PM | #44 |
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I'd say that brake bias issue hurt them both but Max still ahead of Checo.
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