Accident: Success with diminished value claim?

[chad86tsi]

If you *actually paid $80,000 and they are offering you $4,000, and post accident value drops to $74,750 You are only $1250 apart. I doubt the legal effort to capture that $1250 will cost less than $1250.

You are absolutely entitled to the $2550 difference your appraiser provided, or something similar. You also have to assess the cost to get it, and the *actual harm, and the potential risk if you have to liquidate earlier than planned.

I'd offer to split the difference, and take it if agreed to. After legal costs you are unlikely to do better.

[fmzip]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

If you *actually paid $80,000 and they are offering you $4,000, and post accident value drops to $74,750 You are only $1250 apart. I doubt the legal effort to capture that $1250 will cost less than $1250.

You are absolutely entitled to the $2550 difference your appraiser provided, or something similar. You also have to assess the cost to get it, and the *actual harm, and the potential risk if you have to liquidate earlier than planned.

I'd offer to split the difference, and take it if agreed to. After legal costs you are unlikely to do better.

$74,750 was the trade in value of the car according to Carfax before the accident. The trade in value after the accident is $63K according to Carfax. I purposely printed the value report before the accident was posted for this very reason, hence so I could be prepared to play the cat and mouse game with the insurance company.

I made a counter, they haven't moved from their $4K and continue to state nothing but a one-liner emails stating "no further offers are forthcoming"

[fmzip]

Originally Posted by unfoundnemo

If you already shared the appraisal, I can't imagine a lawyer is going to have any success in getting you more than the $6250. If they're offering $4k off the bat, I'd say just try to counter with something like $6250 plus whatever amount you paid for the appraisal, and accept whatever they come back with, it's just not worth the time and aggravation over a couple grand. Their argument would likely be that your pre-accident appraisal was $81k when you only paid $79,990, and you drove the car for 90 days while the market has been falling, so the $4k is more than fair.

It's not like we're talking about a rare car here, where if you were truly worried about diminished value of your investment, you should be reducing your risk and not allowing your car to be in a situation where it could get in such an accident. If you stay away from areas with traffic and use your HP wisely, nobody could hit you from behind

The car was parked in a residential lot without a single car in the lot. It got hit while the guy was backing in "half drunk" while parking his car.


I am miffed by the comments. If you bought your car <90 days ago at $80K and the same cars are selling for that exact same price today with similar mileage give or take a few grand, and you took your car in for trade in and were offered $61K from Carmax and $53K from Carvana, $4K reimbursement seems reasonable?

To reitterate, every counter, every email, every correspondence substianting data to the insurance company has been responded with "no other offers are forthcoming"

[freakystyly]

So when are you selling it? Today? As chad86tsi mentioned way at the top of this thread, that diminished value will shrink to 0 over time. It is a stupid random thing to have happen to an expensive car but we can't hide our parked cars under rocks unfortunately.

Keep the records and pictures of the damage and repair to prove to the potential buyer that it was purely cosmetic and who knows, maybe they wont care.

If I was buying an 8 series and had access to that info I know I wouldn't care. In fact, mine did have a really minor cosmetic claim on it and was still CPO'd by the dealer after the fact.

[chad86tsi]

insurance doesn't deal with trade value, they deal with replacement (retail) value. Be grateful for that if your car ever gets totaled. Their diminished value formulas work off the same basis.

If we open the door to use which ever works in our favor, I'm sure they will use the same to their advantage too.

Good luck whatever you choose to do.

[fmzip]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

So when are you selling it? Today? As chad86tsi mentioned way at the top of this thread, that diminished value will shrink to 0 over time. It is a stupid random thing to have happen to an expensive car but we can't hide our parked cars under rocks unfortunately.

Keep the records and pictures of the damage and repair to prove to the potential buyer that it was purely cosmetic and who knows, maybe they wont care.

If I was buying an 8 series and had access to that info I know I wouldn't care. In fact, mine did have a really minor cosmetic claim on it and was still CPO'd by the dealer after the fact.

I guess the majority don't understand the law regarding diminshed value. You are entitled to the dimnished value of the vehicle at the time of the accident. It doesn't matter if you keep it nor sell it. Your asset was devalued at that time. According to the law, you are to be made whole.

Some states don't have diminshed value laws, others do. The ones that do, this is factored into rates for every policy holder in that state. This isn't an adder policy, this is part of basic coverage. The insurance companies are simply trying to profit versus paying out. Similar to them wanting you to use their body shop or auto glass company versus your own. They can cut corners and profit further.

I hired a professional, unbiased appraisal company with tenure and extensive experience. They stated the value of loss in extensive detail in a 30 page write up. I had to do this according to the insurance copy to sustantiate wht the diminished value to be. They also state they won't pay for the appraisal either and also won't provide any information as to how they arrived at their $4K number. Guaranteed if I hired another unbiased firm, they'd state the same thing

We all pay inflated premiums yet when we need compensation for something, what happens? Typically, your rates go up, you get a hard time. Make a homeowners insurance claim, see what happens. If everyone concedes, they simply are stealing large amounts of money by taking advantage of consumers. It's not a $2K need for me, it's a matter of integrity and principal.

[fmzip]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

insurance doesn't deal with trade value, they deal with replacement (retail) value. Be grateful for that if your car ever gets totaled. Their diminished value formulas work off the same basis.

If we open the door to use which ever works in our favor, I'm sure they will use the same to their advantage too.

Good luck whatever you choose to do.

Chad, in several posts I posted both the trade in values and the retails value both pre and post accident according to CarFax. Both had a $12k difference between a trade in value and also the retail value.

The appraisal coming in at $6250 seemed very reasonable to me, compared to the $12k loss in value at trade in, or retail value.

I would bet a large sum of money that if I listed my car for $74K today, no one would buy it. My guess it would sell for $64K private party and it would take a very long time. I spent 4 months researching $75K+ vehicles prior to buying this car. During that time it was clear as day why certain cars don't sell. The ones with accidents do not sell, particularly cars valued at $75K plus. People spending larger sums of money don't want to be bothered with imperfections nor potential unknow problems. Same reason why I didn't buy one

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by fmzip

Chad, in several posts I posted both the trade in values and the retails value both pre and post accident according to CarFax. Both had a $12k difference between a trade in value and also the retail value.

The appraisal coming in at $6250 seemed very reasonable to me, compared to the $12k loss in value at trade in, or retail value

Those are retail entities. The Appraiser is going to use all sources of info. Just like Zillow and Redfin don't agree with my real estate appraiser on the value of my home. Of the three, which will my bank rely on?

You can give them all the sources you want, they aren't all correct, and that they are different is proof of the inconsistencies of such sciences. If $6250 is reasonable, why even mention the 12K delta? Relying on the one with the biggest price delta is not going to get you any sense of satisfaction when this is all said and done.

I agree you are entitled to more than $4K, I just worry you will pay more than you will get back to fight unless you get a quick concession, which seems unlikely given your description.

[fmzip]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Those are retail entities. The Appraiser is going to use all sources of info. Just like Zillow and Redfin don't agree with my real estate appraiser on the value of my home. Of the three, which will my bank rely on?

You can give them all the sources you want, they aren't all correct, and that they are different is proof of the inconsistencies of such sciences. If $6250 is reasonable, why even mention the 12K delta? Relying on the one with the biggest price delta is not going to get you any sense of satisfaction when this is all said and done.

I agree you are entitled to more than $4K, I just worry you will pay more than you will get back to fight unless you get a quick concession, which seems unlikely given your description.

I am playing the game with them now. They completely dismissed the appraisal and rendered it invalid at $6250 stating it lacked listing of similar cars with accidents in the marketplace. I was told this would be their tactic from the onset, that they'd request items that no one can provide. Every subsequnet email from them was a one liner "no other offers are forthcoming".

So with that, $6250 is off the table for negotations "for now" since they want to F-around. Now I will F around and $12K is the new starting point based on other reputable data. The appraisal firm provided a 27 page explanation of what the process would be like and the insurance company is following it to a T. The also provide support as to what to reply with for each and every excuse and retort. Long and short, it's a game. I am not going to let them win just three days in....

If they want to change theor opnion quickly on the appraisal and renegotiate, I will be receptive. According to the appraiser, this will not happen. The back and forth will continue with more and more excuses and no explanations. Typically, they raise their anti when you get to the supervisor level, then again when you threaten to sue, then again when you file for a court date.....

[KevinC]

My beloved Z4M Coupe was hit last year, total of ~$10k in damage. After it was fixed, I asked the adjuster - a well-seasoned vet of the business in his early 70's - about filing for diminished value. He hooked me up with an appraiser out of Phoenix who specializes in this stuff. He came down to my place - 3 hours to the south - and did the visual inspection of my repaired car, looked at the damage pics, went for a ride-along with me, all the while explaining the situation. Said he was backed up and it would take up to 6 weeks for him to get the appraisal report back to me, which I said was fine. I wouldn't be paying anything until the report was complete anyways.

In the end, I never got the report. As we hit just about 6 weeks, I emailed him, very politely asking if he had an idea when I'd see the report. I got a kinda cranky reply that he'd get to it when he gets to it, then he ghosted me. At that point I just gave up.

An interesting aspect of what he goes after - on top of seeking to recover diminished value, justified by his own appraisal plus a market appraisal of similar cars, itemiized on the report (that I never actually got), but he would also go after rental car reimbursement, based on a comparable vehicle to what had been damaged - and he claimed some huge victories in that regard. My car was down for 57 days, and theoretically I could have recouped some serious money if he could have found a comparable rental. He talked about some big recoveries for exotics damaged then out of service for an extended period during repairs. As it was in my case, I requested (and received) $25/day for the downtime. I didn't actually rent a car as I have a second car, so that was all gravy for me.

Bottom line - yes it's worth pursuing, and you seem to be well down the path. Hopefully it turns out well, good luck.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by fmzip

I guess the majority don't understand the law regarding diminshed value. You are entitled to the dimnished value of the vehicle at the time of the accident. It doesn't matter if you keep it nor sell it. Your asset was devalued at that time. According to the law, you are to be made whole.

Some states don't have diminshed value laws, others do. The ones that do, this is factored into rates for every policy holder in that state. This isn't an adder policy, this is part of basic coverage. The insurance companies are simply trying to profit versus paying out. Similar to them wanting you to use their body shop or auto glass company versus your own. They can cut corners and profit further.

I hired a professional, unbiased appraisal company with tenure and extensive experience. They stated the value of loss in extensive detail in a 30 page write up. I had to do this according to the insurance copy to sustantiate wht the diminished value to be. They also state they won't pay for the appraisal either and also won't provide any information as to how they arrived at their $4K number. Guaranteed if I hired another unbiased firm, they'd state the same thing

We all pay inflated premiums yet when we need compensation for something, what happens? Typically, your rates go up, you get a hard time. Make a homeowners insurance claim, see what happens. If everyone concedes, they simply are stealing large amounts of money by taking advantage of consumers. It's not a $2K need for me, it's a matter of integrity and principal.

This is every company /business in the world these days. Scumbags!!!!! Take the 4 and forget about homie. Probably not worth all the time and aggravation you will go through for another 2 G's.

[fmzip]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I took my posts down in this thread because it just got too stupid.

You say there are laws in NJ regarding diminished value. A Google search brings little result other than a 6-year statute of limitations defining how long you have to file a claim.

You asked if anyone on BimmerPost knows a NJ law practice that deals with diminished value claims. No one does, yet some of us who have been through the process did offer you advice. Your thanks to us was a big FU because you didn't like the answers.

A Google search brings up serveal Firms in NJ who deal in diminished value claims. Just take it up with one of those firms. Me and others have tried to explain to you that it's your risk driving an expensive car, not the at-fault driver. His insurance policy has limits for property damage that at least meet the state minimum. Once that limit is reached, the at-fault driver is responsible to compensate you. Your situation is an artificial one that results from the existence of companies such as CarFax and CarMax. Until you actually try to sell your car, you have experienced no harm. That is why the law in NJ says you can file a claim of diminished value up to 6 years after you are initially compensated for the repair even if you have already sold the car.

There is no law that sets the determination process of what the value of your car is prior to and post repair. The value is the used car market and the realitive transaction price of similar sales. As with any car sale the price is subject to negotiation. I guarantee you, if the shoe was on the other foot, you'd be championing your insurance company to fight for the lowest diminished value.

If you think you are going to "start over" at $12K after you've already presented a $6,250 number, then you have little experience negotiating.

I saw in my daily emails your post that you took down, it was quite interesting. I was looking forward to replying......

Frankly, you don't know me. I negotiate for a living and have been very successful in sales for the past 35 years. What I do for a living has afforded me the opportunity to buy this car and many other things for myself and others which I am quite grateful for. In my opinion, my negotiatiating skills must be pretty good.

In regards to your last point, I would not. I have integrity and I would compensate fairly, not unfairly. I would never dismiss people, I have amicable, fair discussions. Success for me does not come from taking advantage of people to fill my own pockets. When you are fair, you reap huge rewards. When your under-handed, karma will eventually catch up to you.

I have since retained an attorney from reference on this forum via PM. I did not want to blindly pick one, hence the request of a referral. If you don't like this discussion, why read it?? Hopefully this post will help someone else in the future to avoid caving in to insurance firms under-handed dismissive tactics.....

PS: Not sure where I gave an FU if I politely said I didn't agree with some answers. My reply to your post is below

Originally Posted by fmzip

Appreciate your input but I totally disagree. I am an enthusiast and every car that had an accident listed on it, I skipped right over when shopping for the one I bought. I paid $79,990 for this car less than 90 days ago with 3700 miles on it. Why would anyone buy a car with an accident when you can find plenty without unless it's HEAVILY discounted?

In regards to requesting $20K for diminished value, where did that come from? The appraisal came in at $6250. The car fax value difference pre accident and post accident differs by $12K... $20K was never even mentioned.

[fmzip]

Originally Posted by KevinC

My beloved Z4M Coupe was hit last year, total of ~$10k in damage. After it was fixed, I asked the adjuster - a well-seasoned vet of the business in his early 70's - about filing for diminished value. He hooked me up with an appraiser out of Phoenix who specializes in this stuff. He came down to my place - 3 hours to the south - and did the visual inspection of my repaired car, looked at the damage pics, went for a ride-along with me, all the while explaining the situation. Said he was backed up and it would take up to 6 weeks for him to get the appraisal report back to me, which I said was fine. I wouldn't be paying anything until the report was complete anyways.

In the end, I never got the report. As we hit just about 6 weeks, I emailed him, very politely asking if he had an idea when I'd see the report. I got a kinda cranky reply that he'd get to it when he gets to it, then he ghosted me. At that point I just gave up.

An interesting aspect of what he goes after - on top of seeking to recover diminished value, justified by his own appraisal plus a market appraisal of similar cars, itemiized on the report (that I never actually got), but he would also go after rental car reimbursement, based on a comparable vehicle to what had been damaged - and he claimed some huge victories in that regard. My car was down for 57 days, and theoretically I could have recouped some serious money if he could have found a comparable rental. He talked about some big recoveries for exotics damaged then out of service for an extended period during repairs. As it was in my case, I requested (and received) $25/day for the downtime. I didn't actually rent a car as I have a second car, so that was all gravy for me.

Bottom line - yes it's worth pursuing, and you seem to be well down the path. Hopefully it turns out well, good luck.

Thanks for the support!

Yes, by law the at-fault insurance company is required to provide a comparable rental while the car is being repaired. I was given a new X7 which was nice but wouldn't fit in my garage. Man that thing is a land yacht to say the least!

[fmzip]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Fair enough. I negotiate for a living as well. So what is your leverage with the insurance company? You have two separate multi-page reports on two evaluator's opinions of your diminished value based on your car's pre-collision value. One came up with $6,250 and the other $12,000. As Chad stated those two numbers indicate the non-validity of the evaluation process, which works in the insurance company's favor. You already started negotiations, bringing in an Attorney is not going to help at this point; you gave your top number already at $6,250.

The Principle you are arguing is the insurance industry practices are unfair? Good luck with that. And if the table was turned, your good hearted offer to have your insurance company pay the injured party more money for his diminished value? The answer from your insurance would be, "Ah yeah, you'll have to cover that out of your pocket".

For some reason you continue to misconstrue what I have presented. Where did I state that I would want anyone to be paid more than they are owed?? I am not looking for anything more or less than what I am due.

Just to recap:

1) I hired an appraisal firm as the insurance company requested to establish a diminish value. I paid for this. Should I have to pay for this? I think not, I was not the party at fault. They dismissed me on that topic immediately and dismissed the appraisal as inadequate.
2) The company I hired has extensive experience in dimished value claims over several decades. They have a laundry list of over 400 cases they've testified in along with over 300,000 unbiased appraisals. I'd happily hire another appraisal firm as a comp if the insurance company wants to foot the bill. The point being, it needs to be a neutral party to define the value. It's not me, nor is it the insurance company that simply can make a statement that the car is now worth XYZ without substaniating it
3) CarFax is used by nearly every car dealership now and many consumers. Just like NADA/JD Powers KBB, values are established based on factors. From this accident I took a hit on this car. It's an asset that has been devalued as of the date of the accident. It's irrelevent if the car is kept or sold.
4) Most importantly, they offered $4k to me as settlement without any basis on their offer. When asked how they arrived at that number, simply *crickets*. I do not feel my cars value today is $4K less than it was pre accident since they haven't provided me any data. This is why I hired council. I can accept that it is worth $6250 less since there seems to be vaildity to that number based on the multi page research provided
5) Whenever council is involved, insurance companies act differently because they know anything under-handed will be litigated. The point of council at this point is to draft a letter, elevate matters. The attorney applauded the angle of going along the lines with their invalidity of the first appraisal. If the appraisal is invalid so would be the $6250 number. Today the insurance company said the trade in value offered by both Carmax and Carvana were not affected by the Carfax report. Sure, dealerships don't look at Carfax reports...Again, tactics and the tactics will continue
6) Regardless of what a person owns for a vehicle, the same legal rules apply. If a Bugatti got backed into, the other person is liable. The Bugatti owner shouldn't be penalized for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
7) If an expert appraisal firm, multiple trade in offers, Carfax data, NADA Data are all immedaitely dismissed by the insurance company as invalid, I'm fine with taking it to court to let a judge decide. Neutral party can decide and I am 100000000000% fine with that. The point of being dismmised with the under-handed tactics and lack of any explanation of how they arrived at their $4K numberis what I am not fine with. Again, I am not looking for any more, nor any less, than what I am owed

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The real lesson here is, while we think services like CarFax are consumer protection, they are a double-edged sword. The majority of cars suffer some sort of damage over their lifespan. CarFax hurts you at the time of resell.

Agreed 100% and I appreciate Carfax both buying and selling! Carfax reports the value of my veichle to be XYZ. That is now the diminshed value of my vehichle according to "them" as of today. "Today" is how the law is viewed on diminished value.

[evomike]

Originally Posted by fmzip

I already did that....

My car got into a minor accident, had $6600 worth of damage and has since been repaired. The car is a 2019 with only 3700 miles on it at the time of the accident. I since hired an appraisal firm and they assessed the diminished value to be $6250 with the car's non-accident value to be at $81K.

if you already did that why are they not fighting on your behalf? it is their job to negotiate the settlement with the insurance company, it is what you hired them to do.

[fmzip]

Originally Posted by evomike

if you already did that why are they not fighting on your behalf? it is their job to negotiate the settlement with the insurance company, it is what you hired them to do.

The appraisal firm does not engage with the insurance company. They provide guidance and input as to how to respond to their tactics. They were hired to create an appraisal

They attorney was retained yesterday to represent my interests

[evomike]

Originally Posted by fmzip

The appraisal firm does not engage with the insurance company. They provide guidance and input as to how to respond to their tactics. They were hired to create an appraisal

They attorney was retained yesterday to represent my interests

you def got taken by the appraisal company then I refer a lot of my clients to independents to handle their diminished value and they do it from start to finish, sucks but looks like you hired the walmart of appraisal companies from what you are telling me. I am sure you will tell me I am wrong just like everyone in this thread but I am a PA auto damage appraiser and run a body shop in PA they fucked you.

[fmzip]

Originally Posted by evomike

you def got taken by the appraisal company then I refer a lot of my clients to independents to handle their diminished value and they do it from start to finish, sucks but looks like you hired the walmart of appraisal companies from what you are telling me. I am sure you will tell me I am wrong just like everyone in this thread but I am a PA auto damage appraiser and run a body shop in PA they fucked you.

Why would I tell you that you are wrong? Quite possibly I chose the wrong company. The insurance company believes I did as well.

Who is the appraisal company you'd recommend to use. I'm sure it will be valuable information for anyone who reads this thread in the future

[XutvJet]

Most cars are depreciating assets and a M850i is certainly at the top in terms heavy depreciation. You're never going to be made whole on this and I'd consider you pretty damn lucky to be offered $4K in DV.

It sucks that your car was damaged by another party and the resale value will take a hit, but owning and driving a car is a financial risk.

[fmzip]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So you are essentially saying the Insurance company is not negotiating in good faith, and that is illegal? They offered you 64% of your diminished value claim; they basically split the difference and added 14% on top. I'd not call that bad faith. They don't have to back their number. That's what you are pissed about. It's a negotiation. Of course they'd not accept your first offer. If you thought $6,250 was fair, you should have gone in at $12K like you want to now. It's peanut money; Small Claims court at best.

I'm just trying to provide some realism, like a few others have posted as well. Your car's value can drop $15K tomorrow just on market factors alone, no one knows for sure. It's just numbers and small ones at that. Good luck with it.

I clearly understand all the realism and that the simple way is to accept it and move on. Where did I say they were doing anything illegal? Under-handed yes, illegal no. Posting what the game is will hopefully help someone else in the future.

The moral of the post, unless you want to spend months of back and forth, nor hire an attorney, accept what they offer right out of the gate.

If everyone chooses the latter, the consumer ultimately loses. Maybe a select few will see that in this post.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by fmzip

I clearly understand all the realism and that the simple way is to accept it and move on. Where did I say they were doing anything illegal? Under-handed yes, illegal no. Posting what the game is will hopefully help someone else in the future.

The moral of the post, unless you want to spend months of back and forth, nor hire an attorney, accept what they offer right out of the gate.

If everyone chooses the latter, the consumer ultimately loses. Maybe a select few will see that in this post.

Time is money though to many of us. It's hard for me to fathom hiring and paying for an appraiser and involving an attorney and all the back forth that goes with those parties as well as the insurance company. Seems like a lot of time and effort for a couple grand.

My wife's 2020 4runner was t-boned last November to the cost of $8500. We considered pursuing a DV claim, but it really wasn't worth the effort because in Kansas (where we reside), insurance companies rely on the "17C" method to calculate DV. After running the calcs, at best, we might get $800 back and realistically more like $500. It wasn't worth our time to research values, comps, and argue with the insurance company for a few hundred bucks.

[fmzip]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Time is money though to many of us. It's hard for me to fathom hiring and paying for an appraiser and involving an attorney and all the back forth that goes with those parties as well as the insurance company. Seems like a lot of time and effort for a couple grand.

My wife's 2020 4runner was t-boned last November to the cost of $8500. We considered pursuing a DV claim, but it really wasn't worth the effort because in Kansas (where we reside), insurance companies rely on the "17C" method to calculate DV. After running the calcs, at best, we might get $800 back and realistically more like $500. It wasn't worth our time to research values, comps, and argue with the insurance company for a few hundred bucks.

I was waiting for them to throw out the the 17C method which is yet another BS tactic. This “formula” came out of a class action lawsuit against State Farm in 2001 in the State of Georgia. The formula never pertained to individual claims and is also non-applicable.

Agreed time is money which is why sometimes it's best to pass the baton. I'd be more pleased with giving an attorney a couple grand than having them keep it, even if it meant I netted the same or slightly less. Sometimes the fight for the principal of the matter changes the outcome for others in the future. Maybe not but thats how I operate.

This somewhat reminds me of the days when it wasn't the consumers right to take their car to their own autobody repair shop of their choosing. That ultimately changed. Hopefully someday there becomes some system on how diminished values are simply calculated and standardized.