Anyone think nurses have gotten far lazier than they used to?

[ryan stewart]

Originally Posted by jmg

Lol the pizza party is so accurate. How about a reach around while I pound you from behind? Don't worry, I'll give you pizza.

LOL yeah, any nurse would be like this at reading my post:



I know all about the "we cant pay you but here is some papa johns!"

[jmg]

Originally Posted by ToddBlack88

I had a large response typed up for the OP as my family has a lot of experience with this topic, but decided to just state a simple response.

There are lazy nurses, just like there are lazy ( insert any career path here) everything else. I don't believe there are more than there was in the past, but they are out there just like every career.

Edit:

That said, I believe the generations have gotten more lazy over time. It's the world we live in.

There's definitely more in the nursing profession than before with the proportional increase of LNVs and CNAs. A lot of these CNA's are basically unskilled.

Personal anecdote: an acquaintance of mine is a straight up trashy individual. They took the easiest route and became a CNA. Now that's not what I hold against them. A CNA is a job and there's nothing wrong with making the best or your situation and getting a job to feed your kids. However, this person wore that N on her CNA like a badge of honor, and they are one of the most uneducated people I know. Not in the sense of book smarts, just lacking common sense. During the peak of the pandemic they ended up on the news saying that, even as a nurse, they were skeptical of the covid vaccine because it didn't go through clinical trials etc. Now regardless what you happen to think of the vaccine, this wasn't the shitty part. The shitty part was that they were lying. They supported the vaccine, took it themselves, and gave it to their kids. A complete hypocrite. They lied just to be on camera and get the attention. Of course the news station identified them as a "Nurse". Absolutely no distinction between an RN with years of university medical education and clinicals, and a CNA who took a month or so of courses to learn how to wipe asses.

[ToddBlack88]

Originally Posted by jmg

There's definitely more in the nursing profession than before with the proportional increase of LNVs and CNAs. A lot of these CNA's are basically unskilled.

Personal anecdote: an acquaintance of mine is a straight up trashy individual. They took the easiest route and became a CNA. Now that's not what I hold against them. A CNA is a job and there's nothing wrong with making the best or your situation and getting a job to feed your kids. However, this person wore that N on her CNA like a badge of honor, and they are one of the most uneducated people I know. Not in the sense of book smarts, just lacking common sense. During the peak of the pandemic they ended up on the news saying that, even as a nurse, they were skeptical of the covid vaccine because it didn't go through clinical trials etc. Now regardless what you happen to think of the vaccine, this wasn't the shitty part. The shitty part was that they were lying. They supported the vaccine, took it themselves, and gave it to their kids. A complete hypocrite. They lied just to be on camera and get the attention. Of course the news station identified them as a "Nurse". Absolutely no distinction between an RN with years of university medical education and clinicals, and a CNA who took a month or so of courses to learn how to wipe asses.

First, I absolutely agree with you on the bolded part, and this is also the problem in my opinion. Now I am not familiar with the terminology/designation of CNA and LVN that is used in the US, but I assume it’s what we call LPN (Licensed practical nurses) and RCA (registered care aide) up here in Canada. These people have a title that may say Nurse, but they are not nurses……in my opinion.

Up here (BC] the RN course used to be a mixed hands on/theory 2year program. Like an apprenticeship. It’s now a 4 year baccalaureate degree with no ipractical portion.
Most of the nurses coming out now all want to be the boss, and definitely don’t want to work in the trenches. Lots actually leave the profession because they had no idea what the job actually entails.

Health authoritie bean counters decided that LPNs and Care aides, which cost less, should do all the task work that RNs used to do because they are cheaper, but they don’t have the knowledge a RN has. They don’t approach a patient the same way and see the same things. The health authorities have heavily diluted the knowledge and skills in the nursing profession by doing this. People see them all as “Nurses” but that is not really true in the sense of what we all remember. The RNs have become the supervisors of the care aides and LPNs in hospitals and are actually the person responsible for the overall care.
All that charting is unfortunately because we live in a heavily litigious society now.

As for the Personal anecdote part, well….
Trashy people are trashy people. They exist in all walks of life and all professions, and the media is full of them.

This is all just my opinion, specifically to the Canadian system and more specifically to BC health care, but it is based on numerous family members both immediate and extended family who work in both nursing, health care management, and medical law.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by ToddBlack88

First, I absolutely agree with you on the bolded part, and this is also the problem in my opinion. Now I am not familiar with the terminology/designation of CNA and LVN that is used in the US, but I assume it's what we call LPN (Licensed practical nurses) and RCA (registered care aide) up here in Canada. These people have a title that may say Nurse, but they are not nurses……in my opinion.

Up here (BC] the RN course used to be a mixed hands on/theory 2year program. Like an apprenticeship. It's now a 4 year baccalaureate degree with no ipractical portion.
Most of the nurses coming out now all want to be the boss, and definitely don't want to work in the trenches. Lots actually leave the profession because they had no idea what the job actually entails.

Health authoritie bean counters decided that LPNs and Care aides, which cost less, should do all the task work that RNs used to do because they are cheaper, but they don't have the knowledge a RN has. They don't approach a patient the same way and see the same things. The health authorities have heavily diluted the knowledge and skills in the nursing profession by doing this. People see them all as "Nurses" but that is not really true in the sense of what we all remember. The RNs have become the supervisors of the care aides and LPNs in hospitals and are actually the person responsible for the overall care.
All that charting is unfortunately because we live in a heavily litigious society now.

As for the Personal anecdote part, we'll…….
Trashy people are trashy people. They exist in all walks of life and all professions, and the media is full of them.

This is all just my opinion, specifically to the Canadian system and more specifically to BC health care, but it is based on numerous family members both immediate and extended family who work in both nursing, health care management, and medical law.

Pretty much spot on and the terminologies translate to here too. LVN and LPN are the same, just different names in different states. CNA is even less qualified than a LVN in that they do the "dirty" work. Turning patients, feeding, and bathing etc.

[ToddBlack88]

Yes it sounds like your CNA is our Care Aide. That is their scope of work here.

[dreamingat30fps]

Unfortunately I have been in more hospitals than I want to recall with family (luckily I haven’t had to go in myself yet). In my experience they typically have like a main/head nurse, then they have secondary nurses (sorry I don’t know the technical terms). Usually we rarely have issues with the head nurse, however the secondary nurses, which are typically the ones that make or break your hospital stay as they get you food, take you in and out and basically deal with your day to day comfort are usually totally garbage.

Honestly I’m not sure if you actually need any training at all for that job and you certainly don’t need any people skills or empathy. At least around here my experience with those secondary nurses has been mostly horrible. I wouldn’t want them taking care of my gold fish let alone sick people. I’m not sure if that’s the case everywhere. My family always says if you go to the hospital alone with no one to watch wtf they are doing they will probably kill you.

I’m personally terrified of hospitals.

[Humdizzle]

i'm an MD

hospitals are cash grabs. instead of providing patient care its all about profit. how many people can we get in and out ? how much can we abuse the grunt workers (nurses, residents, primary care, hospitalists) while keeping the people who actually bring money (orthopedic surgeons, oncology, etc) happy.

[ryan stewart]

Originally Posted by jmg

Pretty much spot on and the terminologies translate to here too. LVN and LPN are the same, just different names in different states. CNA is even less qualified than a LVN in that they do the "dirty" work. Turning patients, feeding, and bathing etc.

That is one of the maddening things about this pandemic, everyone is like "I know a nurse who says its not real." Oh you know a nurse huh? Do they change the toilet paper in an ambulatory office?

Not that their job isn't important/necessary, but they are more orderlies. Sorry if you can get your cert in a strip mall by the airport you're non-clinical and you shouldn't pretend you are. A CNA only needs a few weeks of schooling while an APRN will have a masters and clinical rotation at the very least.

[Maynard]

Nursing is one of the hardest jobs out there, and one of the most important. Sorta maddening to hear a spouse of a doctor slamming them for not changing her linens for her. Sounds like Doctor Karen is dealing with nurses in an outpatient clinic, where the work really isn't that hard (and those who get those plush nursing jobs tend to be the ones with connections, more than clinical skills). Hospital nursing has the highest rate of on the job disabling injury of any occupation, and pay levels that really suck (not at all in line with their responsibility or education for RN's, and equivalent to fast food or low level retail for CNA/LPN). Then there is the emotional strain of working mandatory overtime, while you deal with the worst of human tragedy day after day (yes, Virginia, there really IS a pandemic that has killed hundreds of thousands, and choked the system to its breaking point; horse tranqs and eatin' your veggies won't help when your lungs shut down). I know it fashionable to bash the medical industry lately, but this thread is way off base.

[Watching The World Burn]

Originally Posted by Maynard

Nursing is one of the hardest jobs out there, and one of the most important. Sorta maddening to hear a spouse of a doctor slamming them for not changing her linens for her. Sounds like Doctor Karen is dealing with nurses in an outpatient clinic, where the work really isn't that hard (and those who get those plush nursing jobs tend to be the ones with connections, more than clinical skills). Hospital nursing has the highest rate of on the job disabling injury of any occupation, and pay levels that really suck (not at all in line with their responsibility or education for RN's, and equivalent to fast food or low level retail for CNA/LPN). Then there is the emotional strain of working mandatory overtime, while you deal with the worst of human tragedy day after day (yes, Virginia, there really IS a pandemic that has killed hundreds of thousands, and choked the system to its breaking point; horse tranqs and eatin' your veggies won't help when your lungs shut down). I know it fashionable to bash the medical industry lately, but this thread is way off base.

Yes, it was outpatient, but I'm failing to see why that means they shouldn't do their job? If the work isn't that hard...why do you think a doctor should be doing the nurse's job for her?

Like I said, I think there are still good nurses out there, in fact I know there are. But they seem to be on the decline. And a lot of the nurses band together in this sort of quasi union kind of thing where they just do write up after write up of doctors for any little thing.

That's ok though, you'll no doubt be infuriated to know that my wife shared this story with a few other doctors and the chief doc decided they'll reply in kind and write that nurse up for once. Little taste of their own medicine.

[iminhell1]

You really can replace 'nurse' with any working title these days. Officer, mechanic, CPA, construction worker ...
There are many people doing jobs they aren't cut out for. Yes they may have training. But that means little. You have to have a passion for your profession and the challenges it comes with. If you're not a people person, you shouldn't be in any profession that deals with the public at large.

I really do think that the school system is to blame for this. Parents second. School age kids just don't have any idea what career they want to do and they have no clue what career are out there and what they have to do to get into that field. Kids basically only know about the immediate people around them, but not really the steps to do the job.
Maybe a simple bring a kid to work program is the answer. Vs doing field trips to amusement parks. Bring kids to see how work is done and dreams are killed.

[rebekahb]

Originally Posted by Watching The World Burn

If the work isn't that hard...why do you think a doctor should be doing the nurse's job for her?

Everyone has a title and when people receive one they've worked hard for they don't like to do work that's below them. Here's the thing, it's a team effort. Did the nurse have another physician yell at him/her earlier, was another patient non-compliant that took up extra time, etc? Did your wife happen to ask if something prevented him/her from changing the sheets earlier? There is rarely team work because when we reach a certain status things are below us. The thing is though, you gain more respect when you get in the trenches with your team.

As far as nurses, it really sucks when you've been working for a facility for years and then because people quit, etc they bring in travel nurses who they pay a ridiculous amount to. How about rewarding the ones who have been there for years? Incentivize them. There were big uproars amongst all of the hospitals in my area over this during the past 2 years.

As far as a previous post regarding nursing training/education, there are many different levels and not all have the same skill/training. To group them all in is not even making a fair assessment. There are some damn good nurses out there. When you've put your blood, sweat, tears in over years and get treated like you're just a cog in the wheel it gets old & tiring. In wound care, those nurses know a hell of a lot more than most of the docs who rotate in or out.

Just because someone finishes medical school may make them more superior as far as education but many times there comes a horrible ego with that. Not everyone is meant to have/want doctoral education. Without these lower educated people (as some others have put it) you couldn't practice medicine.

Hospital administrators suck. It's layers upon layers of bs job titles. Ochsner Health System is a growing giant and perfect example of this. Medicine has become a business. Patients can treat staff like utter shit and they know they can go complain. Everything is based off metrics. Patients in/out, RVU's to meet blah blah blah.

Nutrition was mentioned and how there is no time or something about acute conditions. It needs to be a multi-modal approach. That diabetic with an A1C of say 14 isn't just seeing primary care. At best they are seeing quite a few other specialties. Is primary care supposed to do all the teaching? Teaching nutrition isn't the only aspect. You've got all the crap like preservatives/sodium/added sugars that medicine doesn't solve per se. There is no easy answer to solving this issue. There just isn't the time in a visit for patient to get the education needed and we haven't even gotten into how educated/complaint the patient is.

I don't even know where to get in to the side businesses that are owned or abuse of coding because certain people feel entitled to make a certain amount of money.

These are just random thoughts but could go on and on. Medicine has changed drastically over the years and it's sad. I think OP was just venting on his wife's behind but it's not a cut and dry let's just group everything in type of situation.

[ToddBlack88]

Originally Posted by rebekahb

Everyone has a title and when people receive one they've worked hard for they don't like to do work that's below them. Here's the thing, it's a team effort. Did the nurse have another physician yell at him/her earlier, was another patient non-compliant that took up extra time, etc? Did your wife happen to ask if something prevented him/her from changing the sheets earlier? There is rarely team work because when we reach a certain status things are below us. The thing is though, you gain more respect when you get in the trenches with your team.

As far as nurses, it really sucks when you've been working for a facility for years and then because people quit, etc they bring in travel nurses who they pay a ridiculous amount to. How about rewarding the ones who have been there for years? Incentivize them. There were big uproars amongst all of the hospitals in my area over this during the past 2 years.

As far as a previous post regarding nursing training/education, there are many different levels and not all have the same skill/training. To group them all in is not even making a fair assessment. There are some damn good nurses out there. When you've put your blood, sweat, tears in over years and get treated like you're just a cog in the wheel it gets old & tiring. In wound care, those nurses know a hell of a lot more than most of the docs who rotate in or out.

Just because someone finishes medical school may make them more superior as far as education but many times there comes a horrible ego with that. Not everyone is meant to have/want doctoral education. Without these lower educated people (as some others have put it) you couldn't practice medicine.

Hospital administrators suck. It's layers upon layers of bs job titles. Ochsner Health System is a growing giant and perfect example of this. Medicine has become a business. Patients can treat staff like utter shit and they know they can go complain. Everything is based off metrics. Patients in/out, RVU's to meet blah blah blah.

Nutrition was mentioned and how there is no time or something about acute conditions. It needs to be a multi-modal approach. That diabetic with an A1C of say 14 isn't just seeing primary care. At best they are seeing quite a few other specialties. Is primary care supposed to do all the teaching? Teaching nutrition isn't the only aspect. You've got all the crap like preservatives/sodium/added sugars that medicine doesn't solve per se. There is no easy answer to solving this issue. There just isn't the time in a visit for patient to get the education needed and we haven't even gotten into how educated/complaint the patient is.

I don't even know where to get in to the side businesses that are owned or abuse of coding because certain people feel entitled to make a certain amount of money.

These are just random thoughts but could go on and on. Medicine has changed drastically over the years and it's sad. I think OP was just venting on his wife's behind but it's not a cut and dry let's just group everything in type of situation.

[paquet]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

To become a Physician, high-level Engineer, IT professional etc. one must go to a reputable 4-year undergraduate university and pursue post-graduate training for many years.

I'd just like to point out that IT professionals don't need 4 year training in university, etc.

for the past just over 2 decades that I've been observing, an "IT professional" is either a paper-certificate holder with no real world experience, or a seasoned and grizzled veteran who may or may not hold valid certifications.
Those who have pursued some university training are also thrown into the deep end with no real world experience - but like everything else, it's a mixed bag - some good, some bad.

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by packet

for the past just over 2 decades that I've been observing, an "IT professional" is either a paper-certificate holder with no real world experience...

Must Click "Start" Engineers (MCSE).....

[paquet]

haha you get it!

[TheWatchGuy]

imo, the biggest issue right now is lack of staffing + extended hours + everyone in the world feels they are entitled to be a karen and complain about the littlest things for internet points. its a formula for disaster. Nurses, and healthcare professionals in general, are overworked due to staffing issues and don't always feel like going above and beyond.

having a good chunk of my friends and family in the medical world, oddly enough though no nurses, they all say the same things everyone is saying about nearly every profession right now; there are bad apples in every bunch, but those bad apples ruin it for the rest of them.

OP, how many "positive" interactions, or even just nurses doing their job like they should have interactions, did your wife tell you about? My wife works in the hospital and interacts with nurses with almost every patient (10-15ish/day). Like you, I rarely hear about the good, and only the bad interactions, but when i ask how many interactions she had that didnt piss her off, it puts things in to perspective.

People rarely compliment or even mention the ones doing their job well. its the ones that suck that get the attention.

[Watching The World Burn]

Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy

imo, the biggest issue right now is lack of staffing + extended hours + everyone in the world feels they are entitled to be a karen and complain about the littlest things for internet points. its a formula for disaster. Nurses, and healthcare professionals in general, are overworked due to staffing issues and don't always feel like going above and beyond.

having a good chunk of my friends and family in the medical world, oddly enough though no nurses, they all say the same things everyone is saying about nearly every profession right now; there are bad apples in every bunch, but those bad apples ruin it for the rest of them.

OP, how many "positive" interactions, or even just nurses doing their job like they should have interactions, did your wife tell you about? My wife works in the hospital and interacts with nurses with almost every patient (10-15ish/day). Like you, I rarely hear about the good, and only the bad interactions, but when i ask how many interactions she had that didnt piss her off, it puts things in to perspective.

People rarely compliment or even mention the ones doing their job well. its the ones that suck that get the attention.

True - I'll keep that question in mind.

[unluky]

I will say, I was dating a PA back in the day when the electronic charting became mandatory. The amount of nights that I watched her set on our couch at home charting for several hours after work every day was staggering.

She was all about the patient and not about to let one wait while she charged, so she made small notes on paper and then did the electronic charting at home. The amount of drop-down boxes, check boxes, etc made it very time consuming to do. You can write somebody's birthday much faster than you can scroll through the wheel to select it for instance.

I also know during the pandemic our local hospital lost a lot of nurses. And I mean a lot. I don't blame them at all, that had to be horrible. But I'm sure that's less people doing the same or more work.

I agree as a whole human seem to be getting lazier. Most can't be bothered to put their phone down to do almost anything they're paid to do, so I'm sure nurses are seeing some of that too.

I wouldn't last 5 minutes and the healthcare industry, so I guess I can't throw too many Stones. LOL

[minn19]

It would be very interesting to hear the nurses side of this story. Most everywhere/everyone is understaffed/overworked/overstressed/over responsibled (made up word I know) plus underpaid. Especially in medical. I think we’d all be doing each other a favor if we just gave each other a break and tried to realize this.

I worked for the same medical company for 21 years. The first 18 were great as we had a private owner that gave a shit about her employees and patients. She retired and sold to a private equity firm that proceeded to do what private equity firms do. Either laid off or made all the higher paid experienced people quit (myself included) and now the once gold standard of care in that industry is being flushed down the toilet for the bottom line. Ironically the caring about people approach generated better revenue and growth. Now the revolving door of inexperienced staff is costing them more money in the long run in every way possible. Such is the way of US business though. Don’t invest in people but try and take the maximum you can from the employees. One wonders how long such a system can be sustained. No wonder nobody wants to work.

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by packet

haha you get it!

I have worked in the IT field since before "IT" was even a term, and was part of the road crew back in the day when the information superhighway was still a dirt road.

I've seen enough of the people who have spent their time learning the *tricks* of the IT trade...but never learn the actual trade. As I say all the time, I can hire a 12-year-old or train a chimpanzee to click a mouse. Over 95% of my job is knowing why the mouse *shouldn't* be clicked. Another one is that my job used to be much more fun before lawyers and auditors (and now data insurance brokers) discovered the IT industry.

Whenever I need some mindless entertainment, I go search the web for MCSE how-to articles and posts in the Microsoft support forums. Between "in my home lab" and "I have a customer that wants" posts, it is obvious how many people are working in IT with *zero* actual experience in a production environment. Do you think any one of them would even know what change control was without Binging it (because MCSE's can't use Google)?????

[UncleWede]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

change control

Change control
Smange control

We issued an ERP RFP, and one vendor asked "Do you have a formal change control policy?"

Good thing it was a zoom and I don't use a camera. . .