F1 2024: Dutch GP - Zandvoort (Aug 25)

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by atopa2002

LEC
NOR
RUS

VER and HAM will take themselves out

Wishful thinking

[CMW33]

Home cooking for Max this time around.

1. VER
2. PIA
3. NOR

Originally Posted by M5Rick

With silly money being banded about and moves predicted with drivers and team support staff traditional fans are being priced out of attending F1 and being replaced by different kinds of younger well off followers who ignore they are getting a raw deal with ticket prices e.g. for BGP apparently going up nearly two fold or even more since the last race.
https://www.planetf1.com/features/f1...handise-prices

Ticket prices are definitely out of control. The British GP is one of the worst offenders. I probably fall in the "younger well off" camp. My dad and I went in 2022. Never again. Happy dad and I got to do it but it was a fortune. Nor am I going to pay like $200 to sit on the grass. Honestly, I am fine watching it on the TV. These prices won't survive a real recession. The good news is that the excess is starting to be wrung out, given the softness in sales for Miami and Las Vegas. Now they just need to get away from all these street circuits.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by CMW33

Home cooking for Max this time around.

1. VER
2. PIA
3. NOR



Ticket prices are definitely out of control. The British GP is one of the worst offenders. I probably fall in the "younger well off" camp. My dad and I went in 2022. Never again. Happy dad and I got to do it but it was a fortune. Nor am I going to pay like $200 to sit on the grass. Honestly, I am fine watching it on the TV. These prices won't survive a real recession. The good news is that the excess is starting to be wrung out, given the softness in sales for Miami and Las Vegas. Now they just need to get away from all these street circuits.

There's one in New Jersey in the pipeline I heard at Bader Field so that would make four in US when completed if the others continue. Amusing really that once mighty Germany has no F1 races at all just because lack of public interest of no other race hero like 7 X champ Schumacher, instead moving to their in-house DTM saloons.
I would love Poland to have F1 GP status and with a rising star emerging, then 16 YO Kacper Sztuka was in F4 two years ago being the youngest driver to compete in that class and like Max Verstappen started at around the age of 4 in karts and has impressed hugely with his talent. His dad Lukasz is a famous rally driver and Kacper's decision was not a fully conscious one at first, his role model is Finland's Kimi Raikonnen and to a slightly lesser extent Max Verstappen and Charles Leclerc..
Here
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/17271...ns-for-f1.html

At this moment at the age of 18 he is in the FIA F3 championship with the Dutch AP Motorsports team, being the 2023 Italian F4 Champion and the winner in the inaugoral edition of the Formula Winter Series. Kacper was a former member of the Red Bull Junior team...

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by dfox

China/India are totally different situations - the fan base and the population that can afford to go to an F1 race are drastically different despite high populations...

I'm sure both China and India have the population of wealty fans that could sell out another GP.
However, I understand your thinking, as that is also the thinking of liberty media (and the owners before that), and it's killing the sport. I don't know if you realise that.
Why are there so many races in the middle east? yes, because of money. All races that the real enthousiast fans dont want.
And all those street circuits? Money.
The hunt for more money is destroying the sport.

Germany is geographically closer to 8 different European races than I am located to the closest US race in Vegas. Europe is just different...

Europe is different indeed. F1 is still very much a european sport. Most teams are european. Most drivers are european. The USA contribution is negligible and in general of sub par level. So having 3 GP's there is well....plenty!
I'd rather see an extra GP on the south american continent. (maybe Argentinia?) Talk about underpresented looking at it's size!

[M5Rick]

Here is Kacper Sztuka.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kacper...per_Sztuka.jpg

[dfox]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Europe is different indeed. F1 is still very much a european sport. Most teams are european. Most drivers are european. The USA contribution is negligible and in general of sub par level. So having 3 GP's there is well....plenty!

And it seems poised to stay that way, despite all the rhetoric that Liberty is trying to US-ify the sport. Europe is largely gatekeeping the sport.

Liberty is denying entry of a US motorsports team that would be worthy of competing... one that has 7 Indy car manufacturer championships in the past 12 years (Chevy is under the same ownership as Cadillac, so no different than the Renault/alpine).

Drivers are european because there is no roadmap in the US for drivers to get to F1. The carting scene here doesn't exist, so someone has to move to Europe to become a part of it. Even if someone is super successful in Indy car, the points given out to obtain an F1 super license are pathetic - enter Pato O'Ward - dropped by RB junior team in 2019 because he wasn't given enough points from his time in Indy to race in F1, fast forward a few years and now a reserve driver, but missed some prime years to develop quicker. And Alex Palou - similar issues.

For a sport that dubs itself as the "pinnacle" of racing, the gate keeping is pretty staggering. I do not consider these drivers as the best in the world, I consider them the best drivers who got into this specific pipeline. No question in my mind that there is more talent out there that just can't get through the gate. And I enjoy it for what it is, but I'm also excited to see the sport grow beyond it's historic European borders into a true international sport.

[AmuroRay]

No matter what happens, I don't see Rus beating Ham for the rest of the year - Rus is a good driver no doubt, but without favorable strategy and advantageous circumstances, he can't beat Ham. (no one can)

I'll have Ham top three, I don't care about the rest.

Also, Norris is ridiculously overrated. If Sainz was in his car, he would be challenging VER. Norris is just a tier below Sainz/Russel and nowhere near the top level which is HAM, VET (we miss you!)........................Lec.................. ................Max

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by dfox

And it seems poised to stay that way, despite all the rhetoric that Liberty is trying to US-ify the sport. Europe is largely gatekeeping the sport.

Liberty is denying entry of a US motorsports team that would be worthy of competing... one that has 7 Indy car manufacturer championships in the past 12 years (Chevy is under the same ownership as Cadillac, so no different than the Renault/alpine).

Drivers are european because there is no roadmap in the US for drivers to get to F1. The carting scene here doesn't exist, so someone has to move to Europe to become a part of it. Even if someone is super successful in Indy car, the points given out to obtain an F1 super license are pathetic - enter Pato O'Ward - dropped by RB junior team in 2019 because he wasn't given enough points from his time in Indy to race in F1, fast forward a few years and now a reserve driver, but missed some prime years to develop quicker. And Alex Palou - similar issues.

For a sport that dubs itself as the "pinnacle" of racing, the gate keeping is pretty staggering. I do not consider these drivers as the best in the world, I consider them the best drivers who got into this specific pipeline. No question in my mind that there is more talent out there that just can't get through the gate. And I enjoy it for what it is, but I'm also excited to see the sport grow beyond it's historic European borders into a true international sport.

99% agree on this - but Hamilton isn't a nepo baby like the rest of the guys on the grid. He earned his spot AND I've seen his skill on display. His eye hand coordination is superhuman.

https://youtube.com/shorts/4814JneuV...k9gT_1OH3ssQke

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

99% agree on this - but Hamilton isn't a nepo baby like the rest of the guys on the grid. He earned his spot AND I've seen his skill on display. His eye hand coordination is superhuman.

Well mate , thanks for a 5 min. laugh . Your post made my day !
Next year LEW can show how much superhuman he is with the Fking Italians...

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Well mate , thanks for a 5 min. laugh . Your post made my day !
Next year LEW can show how much superhuman he is with the Fking Italians...

The 21/22 RB 19 is in Prague. On Saturday Coulthard will be clattering over the town in a RB7
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/29459...in-prague.html

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Well mate , thanks for a 5 min. laugh . Your post made my day !
Next year LEW can show how much superhuman he is with the Fking Italians...

The later 'Oracle CarNext 1 hats are available for under 9£ inc post on eb. I have mine already and they're going fast .

[helmet91]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

China has 1 race. India has none. Germany has none (25% of the USA population)
So 3 races is quite a lot. And there is a race in montreal (so pretty much on the border), and one in Mexico.
And there is only 1 american team and 1 driver.

I'm fairly certain the owners of the Nuerburgring and Hockenheimring no longer want to pay the exorbitant fees to host the German (or European) GP.

Although, Domenicali blames German fans: https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/13943...german-gp.html

[Joachim]

He cowardly (or foolishly) doesn't blame the media and the politicians.

Every motorsport event here is being ranted by press and "good" people a lot.

[Marcoose]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Well mate , thanks for a 5 min. laugh . Your post made my day !

Well, pot, it’s not like you never provide ‘entertainment’. Amirite ?

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by dfox

Liberty is denying entry of a US motorsports team that would be worthy of competing...

That's not true, they're denying entry of any motorsports teams. There's a difference.
The most sure way to get into F1 is to buy a team. Is that the ideal system. No I don't think so, but if you let more teams competing, you also have to do something about qualifying and the starting grid, as I think entering more cars in the race would overcrowd the track. That can hinder the race at the top, and make things dangerous, especially at streettracks.

Drivers are european because there is no roadmap in the US for drivers to get to F1.

This is not true. US racing series also get superlicence points. Indycar gets just as much points as F2 (these are the 2 series that get the most points).
And racing series as IMSA, Nascar and Formula regional americas also give superlicense points. And americans are free to enter racing cups in europe, or japan etc.
But indeed, pretty much all F1 drivers have their background in karting. But this is not a superlicense aspect, it just yields the best drivers.
The US just doesn't produce good enough drivers I think. I also like to see that differently, as the US has a large motorsports fanbase, but US drivers in F1 are rarely succesful, despite having lots of experience.

I'd love to see more succesful US teams and drivers in F1, because only then I think the US can 'earn' more F1 races, because I think the location of F1 races should also, to a certain extend, be based on historical events and the succes of local teams and drivers.
And in that regard it's just strange that the US is lagging, despite having quite a large motorsports scene.
Look at countries like brazil. Almost just as big as the USA, also a lot of inhabitants, but look at how many succesful F1 drivers it has delivered. US could take a lesson there. Therefore I think that south america far more deserves an extra F1 race than the USA.
I'd also like to see an F1 race in Finland. Yes, again europe, but look at how extremely succesful the Fins are in F1 and in motorsport in general.
Australia also 'only' has 1GP, despite having had greater success in F1 than the US, and is also comparable in size.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by helmet91

I'm fairly certain the owners of the Nuerburgring and Hockenheimring no longer want to pay the exorbitant fees to host the German (or European) GP.

For sure. Money is ruining the sport.
All the F1 races in the middle east are testimoney to that. Lots of money, but also a lot of races that nobody wants. Although they are now investing in some really epic tracks (that new saudi race track).
In that regard, the Miami GP is the ultimate disappointment. That track is just ugly and cheesy.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

This is not true. US racing series also get superlicence points. Indycar gets just as much points as F2 (these are the 2 series that get the most points).
And racing series as IMSA, Nascar and Formula regional americas also give superlicense points. And americans are free to enter racing cups in europe, or japan etc.
...
But indeed, pretty much all F1 drivers have their background in karting.

Indy and F2 are not equal in points. In F2, you get 40 points for 1st-3rd. Indycar is only 40 points for first place and then it drops down from there. Aside from 1-3 place, even F3 gets more points than Indycar.

To my knowledge, all of the FIA karting events take place in Europe, which as we all acknowledge, is the primary pipeline for F1 racing. In the US, the primary racing pipeline like this is stock car racing - leading towards Nascar, a much different racing series. A few people have crossed borders from Nascar to open wheel racing, Juan Pablo Montoya and Mario Andretti probably being the most notable that I can find from a quick google search. There's just not much pipeline unless a family is willing to uproot itself to Europe.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by dfox

Indy and F2 are not equal in points. In F2, you get 40 points for 1st-3rd. Indycar is only 40 points for first place and then it drops down from there. Aside from 1-3 place, even F3 gets more points than Indycar.

indeed, that's true. Still, americans are free to race in other classes in say europe or japan.
Also, I rate F2 a higher level than indycar in general. F2 functions much more as a feeder class for F1 to seek out those (young drivers) who are truely talented. Indycar sometimes has drivers that push their retirement...
There are 2 americans currently in F2 BTW

To my knowledge, all of the FIA karting events take place in Europe, which as we all acknowledge, is the primary pipeline for F1 racing. In the US, the primary racing pipeline like this is stock car racing - leading towards Nascar, a much different racing series. A few people have crossed borders from Nascar to open wheel racing, Juan Pablo Montoya and Mario Andretti probably being the most notable that I can find from a quick google search. There's just not much pipeline unless a family is willing to uproot itself to Europe.

yes. But basically you're saying that karting is the best learing school for F1 (and probably all open wheel racing), and I agree.
That also means that a lot of (most?) US drivers won't be good enough for F1, as they miss the skill young karters get here in europe.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a few US drivers competing in F1 at a very high level, but the last 4 decades, the few that made it to F1 pretty much have been a disappointment through and through.
This is often not the case with F1 drivers that venture off in US racing classes (or other classes like le mans etc).
So for a 4th race in the US, my opinion is that that should be earned, for example getting a US driver or US team to win the WDC/WCC.
Otherwise, an extra race should be granted to Brazil or another country in South america.

I'd love to see Andretti enter F1 with his team. But somehow he plays his cards not right. I mean, Audi got there by buying into Sauber. Can't Andretti buy Haas? Haas is a joke of a team anyways. Or maybe Renault?

[AmuroRay]

Soccer and F1 are the only things that Europe still has that America hasn't dominated at, and it's only because we don't care.

As soon as we dominate those, Europe as a whole will be regulated into insignificance. No wonder these are two of the most corrupt sports in the world.

[CMW33]

Originally Posted by helmet91

I'm fairly certain the owners of the Nuerburgring and Hockenheimring no longer want to pay the exorbitant fees to host the German (or European) GP.

Although, Domenicali blames German fans: https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/13943...german-gp.html

Germany is a good cautionary tale of how F1 can make itself irrelevant. The sport is financially healthy (for now) but it seems too reliant on Middle East money and getting the 0.1% to part with as much money as possible. You can make it about the spectacle, exclusivity, and how trendy it is to be seen at a race or whatever, but the thing about trends: they disappear.

I've been watching more WEC racing lately, which is the opposite of F1: super close racing, lots of manufacturer interest, and much, much easier entry.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

and it's only because we don't care.

Apparently some do.
Funny how an individual thinks he can speak for 320 million people.
Do you think that fits the american stereotype?

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Apparently some do.
Funny how an individual thinks he can speak for 320 million people.
Do you think that fits the american stereotype?

Obviously I like formula 1 or I wouldn't be here. But if Americans cared, we would be Formula 1's biggest market and dominate it like we do anything else we enjoy. Football, baseball, basketball, Warfare, Colonialization, exploitation - U-S-A U-S-A