BRZ / GR86 oiling issue confirmed

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by x622

No. Doesn't even matter if you keep it stock. That wonderful piece of shit will still grenade. It's truly amazing that people and fanboys still continue to buy these cars and platforms after how well publicized these issues are. I hear kids bitch piss and moan about the S55 crank hub issue, but it seems far more rare of a problem than the vast plethora of blown EJ's I've seen across numerous subie shops over the past decade and a half.

Tell them the CH is a user problem of not warming up the car and using kickdown while oil not warm. - Engineers.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by forcefed

My neighbour has a wrx... has a spare engine "just in case".
Its almost as if subaru still doesn't know how to build an engine.

Sounds like most 996 and 997 owners haha.

[XutvJet]

I won't debate Subaru's poor H4 reliability history with blown motors. I've owned a number of Subarus over 20+ years including currently a 3.6R Outback (closing in on 9 years of generally trouble free ownership), but let's do keep in mind that this particular owner is taking the car on fairly aggressive road courses and is running aggressive Falken RT660s and a quality suspension. As such, this car does generate higher peak and sustained Gs than a stock BRZ/86.

A M235/M240 that sold for $48-55K new isn't really fit for track duty outfitted like this either and needs oiling upgrades, especially the M235 N55 which ideally needs a $2,500 installed S55/M2 N55 oiling sump setup.

My stock 2011 Cayman Base with a 2.9L H6 is up to the task of heavy track usage, BUT it has a robust dry sump system with 4 scavenger pumps and holds nearly 8 quarts of oil. This car sold for $65K back in 2011; that's $90K in today's money. I see mention of the amazing S2000 as well but also keep in mind that car sold for the equalivent mid $50's in todays money. In comparison, the BRZ/86 is a lower $30K car in today's money and the FA24 has a small pan and quite a standard oiling system. It's a shame Subaru didn't at least increase the pan capacity and add pan baffling. I'm sure KillerB will figure out a fairly easy solution with an upgraded pan.

Cliff notes: It shouldn't be overly surprising that a lower $30K car doesn't have a oiling capacity to handle track work on more aggressive tires and suspension. So few owners use their cars this way anyways. Those that do should be prepared in prepping the car appropriately for track usage including brakes, cooling, and oiling mods.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I won't debate Subaru's poor H4 reliability history with blown motors. I've owned a number of Subarus over 20+ years including currently a 3.6R Outback (closing in on 9 years of generally trouble free ownership), but let's do keep in mind that this particular owner is taking the car on fairly aggressive road courses and is running aggressive Falken RT660s and a quality suspension. As such, this car does generate higher peak and sustained Gs than a stock BRZ/86.

A M235/M240 that sold for $48-55K new isn't really fit for track duty outfitted like this either and needs oiling upgrades, especially the M235 N55 which ideally needs a $2,500 installed S55/M2 N55 oiling sump setup.

My stock 2011 Cayman Base with a 2.9L H6 is up to the task of heavy track usage, BUT it has a robust dry sump system with 4 scavenger pumps and holds nearly 8 quarts of oil. This car sold for $65K back in 2011; that's $90K in today's money. I see mention of the amazing S2000 as well but also keep in mind that car sold for the equalivent mid $50's in todays money. In comparison, the BRZ/86 is a lower $30K car in today's money and the FA24 has a small pan and quite a standard oiling system. It's a shame Subaru didn't at least increase the pan capacity and add pan baffling. I'm sure KillerB will figure out a fairly easy solution with an upgraded pan.

Cliff notes: It shouldn't be overly surprising that a lower $30K car doesn't have a oiling capacity to handle track work on more aggressive tires and suspension. So few owners use their cars this way anyways. Those that do should be prepared in prepping the car appropriately for track usage including brakes, cooling, and oiling mods.

using the CPI calc... a base s2k starting msrp would convert to 57k today...

the ones that sold for 38-39k are actually 68k today ... it was an expensive car for the time... i remember this was when the accord was $16k at the dealer... a civic was 13k

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

A M235/M240 that sold for $48-55K new isn't really fit for track duty outfitted like this either and needs oiling upgrades, especially the M235 N55 which ideally needs a $2,500 installed S55/M2 N55 oiling sump setup.

I'm going to call shenanigans on this one. For occasional track use, while the N55 will EVENTUALLY give up the ghost after YEARS of use, it won't shit its block out on the track in the first couple of years because of shitty oil pan installation and a crappy oiling design that loses pressure in turns. No where near equivalent.

I've heard this false equivalency for years. Back in 2003, when WRX STI's were crapping out their blocks in the middle of the track while the cheaper better built Lancer Evolutions were setting lap record after lap record. And E46's were tooling around track at full throttle all the time and not crapping drivetrain parts out their exhaust pipes.

I don't understand Subaru's apologists. I had to install the Forester Turbo's oil cooler on my BRZ to keep the oil at temp ON THE STREET. I mean BMW has had its hiccups, but Subaru does this over and over and everyone forgives and forgives.

Shawn

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

I'm going to call shenanigans on this one. For occasional track use, while the N55 will EVENTUALLY give up the ghost after YEARS of use, it won't shit its block out on the track in the first couple of years because of shitty oil pan installation and a crappy oiling design that loses pressure in turns. No where near equivalent.

I've heard this false equivalency for years. Back in 2003, when WRX STI's were crapping out their blocks in the middle of the track while the cheaper better built Lancer Evolutions were setting lap record after lap record. And E46's were tooling around track at full throttle all the time and not crapping drivetrain parts out their exhaust pipes.

I don't understand Subaru's apologists. I had to install the Forester Turbo's oil cooler on my BRZ to keep the oil at temp ON THE STREET. I mean BMW has had its hiccups, but Subaru does this over and over and everyone forgives and forgives.

Shawn

And more to the point, isn’t Subaru/Toyota adversiting the track capabilities of these cars? I don’t remember BMW literally telling their owners to take their M235is to the track. That, more than anything, would leave a bad taste in my mouth after getting the repair bill from the dealer.

[XutvJet]

Has anyone spun a rod bearing tracking these cars yet?

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

I'm going to call shenanigans on this one. For occasional track use, while the N55 will EVENTUALLY give up the ghost after YEARS of use, it won't shit its block out on the track in the first couple of years because of shitty oil pan installation and a crappy oiling design that loses pressure in turns. No where near equivalent.

Put sticky rubber on an M235 and take the car to a track with long high G sweepers and you'll be walking on egg shells regardless if you have 1000 miles on the clock or 100000 miles Otherwise, the motor will be fine on most other tracks.

As far as I'm concerned, all bets are off with most any sub $60k car if you plan to take it to a true track with sticky rubber. I figured it was an obvious thing that for most cars you need to do cooling, braking, and oiling upgrades if you want to race hard/competitively.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Cos270

And more to the point, isn’t Subaru/Toyota adversiting the track capabilities of these cars? I don’t remember BMW literally telling their owners to take their M235is to the track. That, more than anything, would leave a bad taste in my mouth after getting the repair bill from the dealer.

BMW sells special use cars for track duty. M4 GT3 is $250,000 plus. Maybe more.

Shawn

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

As far as I'm concerned, all bets are off with most any sub $60k car if you plan to take it to a true track with sticky rubber. I figured it was an obvious thing that for most cars you need to do cooling, braking, and oiling upgrades if you want to race hard/competitively.

Race hard/competitively is something different. Some of these BRZ’s are losing it at HPDE’s. The RTV was blocking the oil pickups.

I understand if you’re trying to win a pro race series. But four 20 minute sessions a day driven hard? Maybe after a few years. So under the “race hard” circumstances you’re right

Shawn
.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by mecheng77

If you own the latest BRZ / GR86, be warned if you track it, you will destroy your bearings. I’d be pretty disappointed if I owned one, it’s meant to be tracked.

I was disappointed when I learned that the N55 has oiling issues on track, so I won’t be tracking mine, but I didn’t pay for a new car.
I’d love to see the same test on a N55 versus B58, S55.

Subaru too stubborn to talk to the engineers out of Stuttgart who know how to design an oiling system for a boxer?

[billnchristy]

I remember the good ole days where manufacturers would just throw more oil at the problem. My 1987 924s had a 7 quart sump.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Has that happened to your 235i?
I had a 135i I just sold with 230,000 Km.
Had wider RE-71R tires, ST coilovers and it was very low and it was stiffer, with an H&R front thick (thicker than an M3’s) sway bar.

MHD Stage 2+ on original turbo pushing all the boost it could…

It was on track whenever I could.

Never had an issue with the powertrain.

You got real lucky and/or weren't on a long track with big sweepers.

I've been on this forum since 2015 and have read a number of accounts of tracked M235's (and 2014+ 335s) spinning rod bearings on long, high G-sustaining sweepers. There's good reason why the OG M2's N55 uses the same oiling system as the S55. With that setup, which is plug and play, you're golden for track work. Of course, with all the cost needed to get the suspension right in the M235, it makes more sense just to buy an M2 as it has all the right parts from the start.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Subaru too stubborn to talk to the engineers out of Stuttgart who know how to design an oiling system for a boxer?

well that is the most amazing thing i've ever seen!

if only they built a seat onto the rig, people would pay to sit on it!

[mecheng77]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Subaru too stubborn to talk to the engineers out of Stuttgart who know how to design an oiling system for a boxer?

Wow that’s insane! I will reserve my bore scoring comment as I’m simply impressed by the test rig!

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by billnchristy

I remember the good ole days where manufacturers would just throw more oil at the problem. My 1987 924s had a 7 quart sump.

Please don't think BMW or others are immune to this behavior. The M5 has a 10 quart sump.

Most of the 2011 up 911's are between 7.5 and 9.7 liters (a little more than a quart per liter)

Shawn

[RM7]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Please don't think BMW or others are immune to this behavior. The M5 has a 10 quart sump.

Most of the 2011 up 911's are between 7.5 and 9.7 liters (a little more than a quart per liter)

Shawn

Well yeah, but those cars are circulating oil through turbochargers and part of that is to remove and manage heat, so more oil capacity isn't necessarily being used just to deal with g-forces and engine lubrication in those examples.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by RM7

Well yeah, but those cars are circulating oil through turbochargers and part of that is to remove and manage heat, so more oil capacity isn't necessarily being used just to deal with g-forces and engine lubrication in those examples.

Almost all cars are turbocharged now.

But the 911 GT3 isn't, I think. Still has an eight quart sump.

Shawn

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Please don't think BMW or others are immune to this behavior. The M5 has a 10 quart sump.

Most of the 2011 up 911's are between 7.5 and 9.7 liters (a little more than a quart per liter)

Shawn

Can't be 2011, you had the 997.2 in 09 and 991 in 12 so not sure which you're referring to.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Can't be 2011, you had the 997.2 in 09 and 991 in 12 so not sure which you're referring to.

The oil capacity of the sumps of 911’s from 2011 till now is between 7.5 and 9 quarts. It’s pretty clear.

Shawn

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

The oil capacity of the sumps of 911’s from 2011 till now is between 7.5 and 9 quarts. It’s pretty clear.

Shawn

Oil Pan - Porsche (9A1-107-032-75) is the oil pan and is listed as fitting 2009-2012 911’s in the parts diagrams. I cannot find any reference to a larger pan from 2011, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I just cannot find it.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Almost all cars are turbocharged now.

But the 911 GT3 isn't, I think. Still has an eight quart sump.

Shawn

Wut?