BMW M sales exec says dual clutch, manual transmissions on their way out

[N & M]

Originally Posted by pukicabuki

What they said doesn't exist, already does. They're either too lazy to go find it or being dishonest in their efforts to find the solution. My guess is the latter. It's cheaper and easy to standardize with a single transmission option, both from a cost perspective as well as an engineering one.

This is true but they also need to achieve thier goal and hit that magical bottom line target.

I said it before; the focus has shifted to future mobility solutions, eco tech and in-car communications and entertainment.

This simply not the investment priority right now and we should hope that the M guys somehow find an engineering sweeetspot that achieves the results we crave.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

The article states that a manual is at it's limits at 450 HP and ~440 ft lbs. Ummm...then how the hell are other cars able to push 600+ so easily?

Sounds fishy to me. Like they are wanting to cut down on cost's and keep that profit margin up even more.

They can spend millions of dollars on research for stupid things like how the battery system works in a BMW (where you have to program it to the car so it'll "last" longer) or a electronic sensor to tell you what level you oil is at (instead of putting in a dip stick). But they can't do the research for beefing up their DCT or manual transmission? BMW is about to be the ultimate driving machine to the regular driving machine.

Not to be devil's advocate, but it does state in the article that they looked at other transmissions that handle powerful cars but they are just too heavy or didn't feel right. I'm not sure how true that statement is, but there it is.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by pukicabuki

It's sad when you can see how blatantly ignorant an executive at this level is. Are the BMW engineers too lazy to do even a small amount of research? Or even shop around to see what suppliers can produce a strong, yet smooth, manual transmission?

The Getrag V160 used in the MkIV Supra in the 90s was light years ahead of any BMW manual transmission I've ever driven. It's precise, smooth and incredibly strong. So strong that nothing other than a strong clutch disc is required for 1000+hp and some serious abuse.

What they said doesn't exist, already does. They're either too lazy to go find it or being dishonest in their efforts to find the solution. My guess is the latter. It's cheaper and easy to standardize with a single transmission option, both from a cost perspective as well as an engineering one.

Well, Getrag stopped making the V160/161 for Toyota, and they cost a pretty penny. I don't know the reason why they stopped producing it, unless it was that Toyota stopped producing the Supra. Maybe if BMW requested for an updated version that transmission, or BMW and VW and Honda got into an agreement with Getrag to use an updated version, the

[MParallel]

I guess I will happily keep driving my SMG(1) equipped car

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by JsL

Which car company does DCT implementation better? Not trying to be a smart a**, just curious.

Porsche. They are the best for dual clutch. They also tune their software on house which I believe gives them the biggest advantage given all the transmissions are so similar whether they are ZF dual clutch or Getrag dual clutch.

Audi's is good and same for Lamborghini in the Huracan.

BMWs DCT always seemed to have issues for me from the software to even hardware issues that took a while to get fixed in my e92 M3 competition. I do think their DCT is better than the zf 8 speed though.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by Invictus

BMW may have - and likely did - design those transmissions. They probably drew up the blueprints, specified materials and performance characteristics.
They just farm out the manufacture to another party. It's likely cheaper due to economies of scale.

Its my understanding that BMW took an existing Getrag gearbox (7DCI600) and adopted it for the E92 M3....probably in the same way that Ferrari took the exact same base box and adapted it for use in the California.

[MiamiFan13]

Originally Posted by Downeaster1

The damn manuals are the only deciding factor for me between the M3 and the C63. If the next M3 doesn't have a stick, I'm tossing my F80 keys to Mercedes.

I've always said this!!!!! Agree 100%

[GabeS]

I am sure there will be adaptors made to run it with a manual transmission. Aftermarket stuff. Where there is a will there is a way.

[pz619]

We've put a man on the moon. I'm sure we can figure out how to make a manual transmission that can handle more power.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by pz619

We've put a man on the moon. I'm sure we can figure out how to make a manual transmission that can handle more power.

You could get a Viper with a manual. This is not rocket science.

[Eau_Rouge111]

I keep checking for the "BMW M sales exec says dual clutch, manual transmissions on their way out" has been fired headline.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Yes, not all DCTs in the 135i's have problems. It's good you're providing a counter balance to my criticisms. But for me, it just makes me a bit more saltier that the product does work for other people. Why hasn't BMW spent time figuring out why we're the special ones and to come up with a fix? It just seems that they threw out one fix but then said, screw it if people are still having problems because we're only dealing with 4 model years of cars with this trans compared to the overall cars in total...not significant enough for us to care to keep applying resources to find and fix the problem.

A further bit of 'counter balance...', we've had similar issues with VW and DSG gearboxes.

Two identical drivetrains, bought very close together, one perfect, the other a disaster. VW not able to fix, even after numerous software updates, new gearbox ECU, still flawed, new DSG gearbox fitted, little change. Function deteriorated very quickly.

Nothing really changed the hesitation, or unpredicted behaviour of slow to move off, and/or lurch. Could be very dangerous if caught out.

Vehicle replaced with another of same engine/gearbox combination, near perfect gearbox behaviour. The first 'perfect' example still with the family and at over 70k miles still working fine.

What surprised me, nothing sorted the issue, seemed everything that could be involved was replaced. Clearly not, more to it than the gearbox side of the drivetrain.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Eau_Rouge111

I keep checking for the "BMW M sales exec says dual clutch, manual transmissions on their way out" has been fired headline.

Why? When MT & DCT are already excluded from models in the BMW range.

[Eau_Rouge111]

That's fine...just don't exclude them from the M cars. I can see why a stick shift isn't offered in a 7 series...but keep them available in the M cars

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Eau_Rouge111

That's fine...just don't exclude them from the M cars. I can see why a stick shift isn't offered in a 7 series...but keep them available in the M cars

By the looks of things, the upcoming F90 M5 will have no manual transmission option available. Furthermore, it appears that it will use a ZF8 automatic rather than a Getrag 7DCT. Indeed, these facts seem to be the primary reason for Quintus' comments in the interview.

He does mention the M3 and M4 too, but in my opinion the manual option will remain for the next generation G2x-based M3/M4 and G4x-based M2.

[Eau_Rouge111]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

Must be have lucky with my 135i DCT, as I never had any such issues like that in the 6 years I owned mine.
I thought it was a brilliant transmission.

Any idea of the DCT on the 135 is a wet clutch or dry clutch setup??

Always been curious...

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Eau_Rouge111

Any idea of the DCT on the 135 is a wet clutch or dry clutch setup??

Always been curious...

My understanding is wet.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

My understanding is wet.

I think I read somewhere it's the same DCT that's in the E9x M3, just with different software. Does anybody know if this is correct?

[rsyed07]

Originally Posted by Esteban

I think I read somewhere it's the same DCT that's in the E9x M3, just with different software. Does anybody know if this is correct?

Yes that transmission is shared between the M3, 135i, 335is, Z4 35i/35is, and European 335i models. Just the software is different based on the cars.

[Downeaster1]

Originally Posted by GabeS

I am sure there will be adaptors made to run it with a manual transmission. Aftermarket stuff. Where there is a will there is a way.

I'm still waiting for a kit or at least someone doing it to their W204 C63. I would do horrible things to get a C63 in a manual.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by rsyed07

Yes that transmission is shared between the M3, 135i, 335is, Z4 35i/35is, and European 335i models. Just the software is different based on the cars.

Correct.

I believe there are some differences in the specs of the clutch packs between the models, but, this is the only 'mechanical' difference.

[Db750]

Very nice for BMW to level the playing field even more and more. As these cars get softer and softer each generation the one thing that has kept me with BMW has been the dct vs audi or merc auto. They start putting auto only in m cars, which I read they are doing in the new m5, there's a good chance I won't have a BMW in my garage for the first time in ten years!