Firearms

[Grip Addict]

Welp, sent in my CCW permit.

[zentanker]

Originally Posted by sspade

If someone brandishes a weapon, in a threatening manner (points it at you)... and you become scared in the process...

You are allowed to empty your clip into their chest, correct?

Asking for a friend.

In California? No, your life is forfeit and you just have to run and hope for the best until you run out of places to run, and then you can protect yourself, but if you do and your pistol holds more rounds than the califonian overlords think is the right number, then you might be screwed.

[Uncledanny6]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

I disagree. The 40 has the same force as a 357 magnum. Police agencies have been widely adopting it. The original 45 was developed because at the turn of the 20th century our forces faced Polynesians with .38 specials. More powerful than 9mm. They would shoot the natives only to have them continue on to run them through with spears. The 45 was an instant man stopper. Dropped them instantly. If youre hit with a 45 anywhere besides below the elbow, you will drop and be out of commission instantly 98% of the time. 9mm would require double taps to produce the same effect. Yes, 9mm is lethal. Actually. 22 kills more people than any other round. But they don't have the instant stopping force of the larger caliber ammo. I carry the .380 a lot. Less power than 9mm but same size bullet. Hollow tips. If i need to ever use it which i hope is never, it will be a double tap.

Not true. Do the math, force equals mass x acceleration. .40 has much less " force" than a .357 magnum. .357; Standard 158 gr at 1250 FPS 197,000 cup vs .40 s&w ; 180 gr at 960 ; 171000 cup. Agreeing and disagreeing has nothing to do with power factor . Stay in your lane . Please.

Polynesians ? LMAO . You mean the Filipino insurrectos aka moros. The myth of the .45 is a tough one . Too much Hollywood . Standard issue us military 230 gr ball at 800 FPS. That is 184,000 cup. Yawn .

The 40 is on it's way out again . Because marksmanship is everything . The Marine Spec Ops nominally are issued a .45 ACP colt 1911 variant called the M45. No one wanted to carry it . Several years later the MARSOC got a waiver to purchase Glock 17s in 9mm due to reliability and because they train like madmen, AND IF YOU CAN SHOOT, A 9MM DOES THE JOB. The .40 came into being because the smaller FBI agents couldn't handle the full 10mm. They dumbed it down and the 40 came into being. NAVY Special Warfare and ARMY SF also use 9mm .

The bullets you might be referring to are called Hollow Points , not hollow tips.

A double tap, aka a controlled pair, is no guarantee either . If that is your mindset , you should leave it at home . You shoot until the threat no longer exists . Stand there flat footed and gloating with your perfect pair on target and you're a DEAD MAN . You have the rest of your life to keep shooting until you've won a gunfight . Two rounds means nothing if you didn't stop that fight.

No handgun cartridge is an "instant man stopper ". It is a myth . Not enough trauma .

[Rhidium]

Originally Posted by sspade

If someone brandishes a weapon, in a threatening manner (points it at you)... and you become scared in the process...

You are allowed to empty your clip into their chest, correct?

Asking for a friend.

Depends on the state. Some states require you to withdraw others you can just blast away in a safe manner.

Since someone mentioned CA, there is a code where you can use deadly force if you fear that your life or other lives are in danger.. But I'm not sure how effective is a spoon is in saving your life there. 🤣

Seriously your friend needs to look up the law where ever they are located.

[Rhidium]

Originally Posted by Uncledanny6

Not true. Do the math, force equals mass x acceleration. .40 has much less " force" than a .357 magnum. Standard 158 gr at 1250 FPS 197,000 cup vs 180 gr at 960 ; 171000 cup. Agreeing and disagreeing has nothing to do with power factor . Stay in your lane . Please

To me it is all about shoot placement with modern high end bullets and the # of rounds I can get into the target with the 9mm vs 40.

9mm is easier for me to get back on target based on the guns I've shot.

[Uncledanny6]

Originally Posted by sspade

If someone brandishes a weapon, in a threatening manner (points it at you)... and you become scared in the process...

You are allowed to empty your clip into their chest, correct?

Asking for a friend.

Originally Posted by sspade

If someone brandishes a weapon, in a threatening manner (points it at you)... and you become scared in the process...

You are allowed to empty your clip into their chest, correct?

Asking for a friend.

Your friend has to thoroughly and very carefully be able to articulate , most likely to a jury, that his response was reasonable , appropriate, proportionate , and necessary . 'Nuff said.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by Uncledanny6

Not true. Do the math, force equals mass x acceleration. .40 has much less " force" than a .357 magnum. .357; Standard 158 gr at 1250 FPS 197,000 cup vs .40 s&w ; 180 gr at 960 ; 171000 cup. Agreeing and disagreeing has nothing to do with power factor . Stay in your lane . Please.

Polynesians ? LMAO . You mean the Filipino insurrectos aka moros. The myth of the .45 is a tough one . Too much Hollywood . Standard issue us military 230 gr ball at 800 FPS. That is 184,000 cup. Yawn .

The 40 is on it's way out again . Because marksmanship is everything . The Marine Spec Ops nominally are issued a .45 ACP colt 1911 variant called the M45. No one wanted to carry it . Several years later the MARSOC got a waiver to purchase Glock 17s in 9mm due to reliability and because they train like madmen, AND IF YOU CAN SHOOT, A 9MM DOES THE JOB. The .40 came into being because the smaller FBI agents couldn't handle the full 10mm. They dumbed it down and the 40 came into being. NAVY Special Warfare and ARMY SF also use 9mm .

The bullets you might be referring to are called Hollow Points , not hollow tips.

A double tap, aka a controlled pair, is no guarantee either . If that is your mindset , you should leave it at home . You shoot until the threat no longer exists . Stand there flat footed and gloating with your perfect pair on target and you're a DEAD MAN . You have the rest of your life to keep shooting until you've won a gunfight . Two rounds means nothing if you didn't stop that fight.

No handgun cartridge is an "instant man stopper ". It is a myth . Not enough trauma .

Move to cover. He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day. Also remember when you do make the decision to shoot you are responsible for every round you shoot, rounds that don't hit your intended target don't just fall to the ground.

[sspade]

For the record... out here they are teaching us to empty our clip if someone points a weapon at you (in a threatening manner). That's the training I've received so that's the action I will take.

[1MOREMOD]

Then they should teach you, you dont have a clip it's a magazine.

[sspade]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Then they should teach you, you dont have a clip it's a magazine.

I carry a revolver... could be why I'm unfamiliar.

As I said... someone will make a mistake...

[Shiza]

Originally Posted by sspade

I carry a revolver... could be why I'm unfamiliar.

As I said... someone will make a mistake...

A revolver for a carry gun? Don't think that's the wisest choice.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by Shiza

A revolver for a carry gun? Don't think that's the wisest choice.

There's nothing wrong with a revolver. It may be a bit more difficult to conceal but they are accurate, never have mechanical stoppages and very easy to shoot without having to worry about external safeties etc. The main drawback is capacity.

[Shiza]

Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man

There's nothing wrong with a revolver. It may be a bit more difficult to conceal but they are accurate, never have mechanical stoppages and very easy to shoot without having to worry about external safeties etc. The main drawback is capacity.

Yeah, my concerns would be capacity and reload speed. I do see your point about no mechanical stoppages but to me capacity seems it would be more important.


A 15 round mag dump with a small chance of a stoppage seems like better odds than 6 rounds followed by a long reload time.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by Shiza

Yeah, my concerns would be capacity and reload speed. I do see your point about no mechanical stoppages but to me capacity seems it would be more important.


A 15 round mag dump with a small chance of a stoppage seems like better odds than 6 rounds followed by a long reload time.

So back in the day, revolvers were what we carried. With a speed loader you can reload pretty fast. Sure only 6 rounds, but as i recall most gun fights were usually settled with less rounds than you'd think.

i think the biggest issue with CCW is practice and confidence. You want good muscle memory when things start happening. i suspect most people have some idea of what they would do, in reality you don't get to pick what happens in advance but must react. Get out to the fight, move to cover or escape is better. The ability to get the gun out of the holster requires practice.....i've seen seasoned shooters drop the pistol on the draw. And then there is accuracy, shooting a paper target is easy, it's not presenting a threat. I like to do shooting and moving drills as opposed to standing in a stall and putting holes in a singe paper target. Multiple targets and various size and distances......practice practice practice. If you miss, you are responsible for every round you fire.

[1MOREMOD]

Not standard for sure would.carry revolver as my bug, as leg gun maybe. Also wouldn't ever position my gun in that manner. Even at rest I make sure its not pointed at things I dont intend to shoot.

Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man

I like to do shooting and moving drills as opposed to standing in a stall and putting holes in a singe paper target.

Spetsnaz drills...it's the only way:

[Joekerr]

Originally Posted by Shiza

Yeah, my concerns would be capacity and reload speed. I do see your point about no mechanical stoppages but to me capacity seems it would be more important.


A 15 round mag dump with a small chance of a stoppage seems like better odds than 6 rounds followed by a long reload time.

Speaking as someone who has never been in a scenario where shooting was a consideration (and hopes never to be)...so, read "experience, just tons of experience" - logically it seems to me putting a bullet on target would be number one priority.

So the number of rounds seems to pale in comparison to how accurately (without stoppages) you can get your rounds to target. Thus, use what you shoot best. Whether that's a revolver or not.

[Grip Addict]

Originally Posted by FCobra94

Spetsnaz drills...it's the only way:

That would be some Russia stuff. Some of the most crazy stuff.

The first one was the dumbest one, like bulletproof vests fail to stop things all the time. You really want your life ended in a gun drill?

The second drill does not make much sense other than just testing focus, but I am not sure what situation people who arent bad guys would be pulling/pushing/shooting guns near your head/trying to blow your vision while you shoot at bad guys.

Surely there has to be a better way to test your focus in situations.

[adc100]

Originally Posted by Shiza

A 15 round mag dump with a small chance of a stoppage seems like better odds than 6 rounds followed by a long reload time.

No competent instructor will tell you to use more shots than you need. And I have the best.
You shoot ONLY until the immediate threat is neutralized. While you are throwing extra lead you hurt your self 3 ways.:

You deplete your ammo. You never know if there is an unseen threat.

While you are shooting you can not scan the area. As soon as the threat is eliminated you want to take a step or two to force another shooter to reacquire his target (you). And you immediately use just your eyes to look around

As Grumpy said..every round you put out there is owned by you.

Nothing wrong with a Revolver. I do not use one though. I only carry 5+1 in my .380 and am very comfortable with it. Not even mildly concerned its not enough.

[zentanker]

Originally Posted by sspade

I carry a revolver... could be why I'm unfamiliar.

As I said... someone will make a mistake...

This pic makes me cringe a bit.

..and your bits should be cringing too.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by zentanker

This pic makes me cringe a bit.

..and your bits should be cringing too.

I mentioned as much as well

[zentanker]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

I mentioned as much as well

Indeed you did, and well said.