The Airplane Thread

[Llarry]

Tomcat Thursday!

Two squadrons of F-14D Tomcats on the flight deck of the USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN 71). The only other aircraft on deck are four MH-60 helicopters, folded and parked by the carrier's island.

[Llarry]

The Grumman S-2 Tracker or "Stoof" was a long-serving U.S. Navy carrier-based antisubmarine aircraft that was one of the last operational piston engine-powered aircraft produced for the Navy. It also saw widespread use in other countries as both carrier- and land-based ASW and maritime patrol aircraft.

In the 1960s, the Navy decided that a modern replacement aircraft was needed for the S-2. Various options -- and various engines -- were considered and Lockheed, not normally a supplier of carrier aircraft but very experienced in land-based patrol & ASW airplanes such as the P-2 Neptune and the P-3 Orion, was selected to develop what became the S-3 Viking.

The prototype S-3 first flew in early 1972. It was powered by a new small turbofan engine, the General Electric TF34 (which also powered the A-10 Warthog). The test program went fairly smoothly and the first fleet S-3As were delivered in 1973, with the first full squadron deployment in 1976.

The S-3A was greatly improved over the S-2, with jet performance that far exceeded the older airplane's. Although initial plans were for embarkation on ASW carriers (older World War II-era ships that had been updated with angled decks, etc.) the Vietnam War had worn those ships out and they were retired about the time the S-3A entered service. The revised plan was to embark a small air ASW S-3 squadron on each attack carrier.

The Navy took delivery of 187 S-3As, and starting in 1987 updated the force with newer systems as the S-3B. In the fleet the S-3 acquired the nickname "Hoover" due to the distinctive sound of its TF34 engines.

With the end of the Cold War, the need for carrier-based ASW aircraft was considered less important. In 1999, the serving S-3Bs began to have their ASW systems removed, and the aircraft became an important asset in the aerial refueling role while retaining some weapons capability in low-threat environments. In 2004-2008 the refueling mission was assumed by F-18E/F Super Hornets and the S-3 was retired.

There was some sentiment afterwards for the return of S-3s from the boneyard to carrier decks, but that never happened and the carrier-based ASW mission is filled by MH-60R helicopters, which of course have far less range than the S-3.

Post-script: Six early S-3A airframes were converted to carrier-capable COD (transport) airplanes and flown by VRC-50 "Foo Dogs" for a number of years. They could carry a cargo pod on the wing station. See last photo (cargo pod not depicted.)

[Llarry]

Here's a comparison between the Vought F-8 Crusader -- the first truly supersonic U.S. Navy/Marine fighter, which first flew in 1955 -- and the Vought A-7 Corsair II -- a design derived from the F-8 but optimized for the attack mission, which first flew in 1965. The A-7 took the basic design of the F-8 and:
-- Shortened the airframe to allow more aircraft on the crowded decks of aircraft carriers
-- Replaced the afterburning J57 engine of the F-8 with a fuel-sipping non-afterburning turbofan
-- Modified the wing for additional fuel capacity and subsonic flight
-- Added more wing pylons for carrying weapons or external fuel
-- Substituted attack-oriented radar for the fighter's air intercept radar

Here an A-7B of VA-155 "Silver Foxes" refuels an F-8J of VF-191 "Satan's Kittens" during the Vietnam War.

[Llarry]

The F-8 Crusader also brought Navy and Marine Corps photo reconnaissance into the supersonic age with the RF-8A variant (old F8U-1P). The F8U-1P first flew in late 1956 and 144 were delivered to the Navy and Marines through 1960.

One of the early production F8U-1Ps, flown by Marine Major John Glenn (later astronaut and U.S. senator) set a transcontinental speed record in July 1957 at an average speed of 726 mph.

In 1962, Navy and Marine RF-8As played a major role, along with Air Force RF-101s and U-2s, in the Cuban Missile Crisis by flying hazardous low-level missions over Cuba to photograph missile sites.

Probably the most important contributions of photo Crusaders came during the Vietnam War. RF-8As flew missions over North and South Vietnam. Many were lost to enemy air defenses.

Navy RF-8s were organized into two very large squadrons -- one on the East coast and one in the West -- which would send detachments of 3-4 RF-8s on aircraft carrier deployments. Marine photo Crusaders were assigned to three composite squadrons which also operated electronic warfare aircraft.

In 1965, a remanufacturing program was started to update 73 RF-8As to an improved RF-8G configuration with stronger wing spars, ventral fins for improved stability at high speed and other changes. A couple of years later, the Marines replaced their RF-8s with RF-4B Phantoms; The two Navy squadrons and several small Marine Corps Reserve squadrons continued to fly the RF-8G.

The photo Crusaders were the last F-8s to serve: Long after retirement of the type from active duty, two Naval Reserve squadrons operated RF-8Gs until 1987, long after the retirement of the F-8 fighter versions.

[Llarry]

I've posted quite a few times about vintage U.S. Navy and Marine Corps aviation and there's always the issue of the massive change of aircraft designations that took place in 1962, when the Navy system of designations (used by the Navy, Marines and Coast Guard) was changed to conform to the Air Force system. (1962 also changed the Army designations to conform to the USAF system, but I post less about Army aviation.)

Here's a cheat sheet, with the new designation and the old equivalents for the most important aircraft types:

New designation . . . . . . . . . Old designation

A-1 Skyraider . . . . . . . . . . . . AD

A-3 Skywarrior . . . . . . . . . . A3D

A-4 Skyhawk . . . . . . . . . . . . A4D

A-5 Vigilante . . . . . . . . . . . . . A3J

A-6 Intruder . . . . . . . . . . . . . A2F

C-1 Trader . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .TF

C-45 Twin Beech . . . . . . . . . . SNB

C-47 & C-117 Skytrain . . . . . . R4D

C-54 Skymaster . . . . . . . . . . R5D

C-118 Liftmaster . . . . . . . . . . R6D

C-121 Constellation . . . . . . . . . R7V
(The EC-121 was formerly the WV)

C-130 Hercules . . . . . . . . . . . . GV (G = tanker)

E-1 Tracer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . WF

E-2 Hawkeye . . . . . . . . . . . . . W2F

F-4 Phantom . . . . . . . . . . . . . . F4H
(USAF Phantoms were also redesignated from F-110 to F-4)

F-8 Crusader . . . . . . . . . . . . . . F8U

F-9 Cougar . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . F9F

F-11 Tiger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . F11F

H-2 Seasprite . . . . . . . . . . . . . .HU2K

H-3 Sea King . . . . . . . . . . . . . . HSS-2

H-34 Seahorse/Seabat . . . . . . . .HSS (Seabat), HUS (Seahorse)

P-2 Neptune . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . P2V

P-3 Orion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . P3V

P-5 Marlin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . P5M

S-2 Tracker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . S2F

T-2 Buckeye . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . T2J

U-16 Albatross . . . . . . . . . . . . . UF

Sorta makes your eyes glaze over, huh? And this is a simplified list.

[Llarry]

Both Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan pursued extremely long-range bombers to attack their U.S. enemy, but none became operational. In the case of Japan, the Nakajima G10N Fugaku was a Japanese Navy concept for a six-engine very heavy bomber that existed only on paper.

[M-technik-3]

Assuming it was pressurized and would cruise at altitude maybe on 4 engines vs using six?

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by M-technik-3

Assuming it was pressurized and would cruise at altitude maybe on 4 engines vs using six?

The G10N was a concept only and was indeed pressurized. The paper specs included a cruising altitude of 10,000 m (32,810 feet). I suspect that kind of altitude would require all six running.

Some other (conceptualized) specs: Length 40 m (131 feet) and span 63 m (207 feet). Loaded weight 160,000 kg (352,000+ pounds.)

It would have dwarfed the B-29.

[Llarry]

I've previously posted about the U.S. Navy's TACAMO aircraft -- these are the airplanes that provide critical links between national command authorities and the strategic missile submarines (SSBNs) and Air Force ICBM forces of the United States.

The TACAMO aircraft date to the 1960s, when the concept of an airborne very low frequency communications link to submerged submarines was born. By 1966, modified C-130s were being used to communicate with the SSBNs. In 1990, the Boeing E-6A based on a 707 airframe was introduced to replace the EC-130s. In 1998, the Navy E-6 force also assumed responsibility for communicating with land-based USAF strategic forces with an updated E-6B.

The Navy's force of E-6Bs, based at Tinker AFB in Oklahoma but deploying both east and west, are getting long in the tooth and are now to be replaced by a new C-130J variant. But the Navy has a small problem -- they can't designate it as an EC-130J as the Air Force already had an aircraft with that designation used for electronic warfare. The solution? Drop the C and call it the E-130J.

These electronic mission -130Js are not the only problem with C-130J variants. There are already two different aircraft designated HC-130J: A USAF HC-130J used by special operations for helicopter refueling, etc., and a Coast Guard HC-130J used for traditional USCG search and rescue duties.

E-130Js are scheduled to replace the current small E-6B force and will continue to be based in Oklahoma. The first E-130J will be produced in 2026.

[3.0L]

Originally Posted by Llarry

The F-8 Crusader also brought Navy and Marine Corps photo reconnaissance into the supersonic age with the RF-8A variant (old F8U-1P). The F8U-1P first flew in late 1956 and 144 were delivered to the Navy and Marines through 1960.

One of the early production F8U-1Ps, flown by Marine Major John Glenn (later astronaut and U.S. senator) set a transcontinental speed record in July 1957 at an average speed of 726 mph.

In 1962, Navy and Marine RF-8As played a major role, along with Air Force RF-101s and U-2s, in the Cuban Missile Crisis by flying hazardous low-level missions over Cuba to photograph missile sites.

Probably the most important contributions of photo Crusaders came during the Vietnam War. RF-8As flew missions over North and South Vietnam. Many were lost to enemy air defenses.

Navy RF-8s were organized into two very large squadrons -- one on the East coast and one in the West -- which would send detachments of 3-4 RF-8s on aircraft carrier deployments. Marine photo Crusaders were assigned to three composite squadrons which also operated electronic warfare aircraft.

In 1965, a remanufacturing program was started to update 73 RF-8As to an improved RF-8G configuration with stronger wing spars, ventral fins for improved stability at high speed and other changes. A couple of years later, the Marines replaced their RF-8s with RF-4B Phantoms; The two Navy squadrons and several small Marine Corps Reserve squadrons continued to fly the RF-8G.

The photo Crusaders were the last F-8s to serve: Long after retirement of the type from active duty, two Naval Reserve squadrons operated RF-8Gs until 1987, long after the retirement of the F-8 fighter versions.

I’m probably repeating myself, but I remember when 2 Crusaders landed at
our local airport when I was a kid. The sight of these 2 awesome aircraft
sitting on the ramp created quite a stir among local “puddle jumper” pilots.

The 2 Crusaders were getting low on fuel, so made the precautionary
landings, even though the runway length was just barely adequate. Navy
support personnel arrived in soon thereafter to guard the airplanes and
refuel. I remember the noise when they departed the next day.

[M-technik-3]

Originally Posted by Llarry

I've previously posted about the U.S. Navy's TACAMO aircraft -- these are the airplanes that provide critical links between national command authorities and the strategic missile submarines (SSBNs) and Air Force ICBM forces of the United States.

The TACAMO aircraft date to the 1960s, when the concept of an airborne very low frequency communications link to submerged submarines was born. By 1966, modified C-130s were being used to communicate with the SSBNs. In 1990, the Boeing E-6A based on a 707 airframe was introduced to replace the EC-130s. In 1998, the Navy E-6 force also assumed responsibility for communicating with land-based USAF strategic forces with an updated E-6B.

The Navy's force of E-6Bs, based at Tinker AFB in Oklahoma but deploying both east and west, are getting long in the tooth and are now to be replaced by a new C-130J variant. But the Navy has a small problem -- they can't designate it as an EC-130J as the Air Force already had an aircraft with that designation used for electronic warfare. The solution? Drop the C and call it the E-130J.

These electronic mission -130Js are not the only problem with C-130J variants. There are already two different aircraft designated HC-130J: A USAF HC-130J used by special operations for helicopter refueling, etc., and a Coast Guard HC-130J used for traditional USCG search and rescue duties.

E-130Js are scheduled to replace the current small E-6B force and will continue to be based in Oklahoma. The first E-130J will be produced in 2026.

Interesting that that they did not piggyback of the 737 airframe. Faster, etops capable, more loiter time probably too.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by M-technik-3

Interesting that that they did not piggyback of the 737 airframe. Faster, etops capable, more loiter time probably too.

I'm not sure that faster was a major determining factor, although in an emergency I suspect you want to get over water sooner. I think loiter time is a big deal for the TACAMO mission. Perhaps the twin engine versus four engine angle played a role in the selection of a C-130.

[vreihen16]

It was probably all congresscritters looking out for the defense contractors in their districts, and not based on any actual technological reason.....

[Lady Jane]

Originally Posted by Llarry

I'm not sure that faster was a major determining factor, although in an emergency I suspect you want to get over water sooner. I think loiter time is a big deal for the TACAMO mission. Perhaps the twin engine versus four engine angle played a role in the selection of a C-130.

The C-130J TACAMO will probably have a much lighter payload than the traditional 34000lbs (Normal)- 42000lbs (Max allowable) which means that it can stay aloft longer and fly higher especially if fitted the extra wings tanks. (4 vs 2) with a decent speed of 348 knots. Not to mention its ability to land and take-off from much shorter fields if required. I think it's a good choice overall.

[vreihen16]

Interesting comparison if these models are all the same scale.....






.

[Llarry]

Tomcat Thursday!

This F-14B of VF-11 "Red Rippers" missed the arresting cables and is going around again for another try in what is called a "bolter".

[Llarry]

A couple of NATO aviation news items:

The Polish Air Force will update their 36 F-16C and 12 F-16D Vipers in a midlife upgrade -- primarily advanced electronics -- in a US$7.3 billion program. Note the conformal fuel tank on the photo of an F-16C.

The first (of 8) P-8A Poseidons for the German Navy will fly next month, with deliveries starting in 2025. (Boeing image)

[Llarry]

The origins of airborne early warning (AEW) -- which ultimately led to airborne warning and control systems (AWACS) -- can be traced back to early 1942. The U.S. Navy was searching for improved air defense from air attack on their aircraft carriers. Ship-installed radars could only detect attacking aircraft at limited range due to the curvature of the earth. Increasing the height of the radar also increased the detection range of the radar.

The Massachusetts Institute of Technology took on the task of developing a radar that could be carried aloft by an airplane. The effort was dubbed Project Cadillac. It quickly became obvious that the size and weight of the radar and associated electronic equipment would be a great challenge. The answer came in the form of the Grumman/Eastern Avenger torpedo bomber, then the largest carrier aircraft available. By the time, the first airborne AEW radar was available, Eastern had taken over production of the Avenger as the TBM to free Grumman's resources to concentrate on fighter aircraft.

The APS-20 AEW radar was installed in an Eastern TBM-3 in 1944 and the resulting XTBM-3W (W for warning) first flew in August of that year. While the project was a high priority, it became even more so later in '44 when the Kamikaze threat to Allied ships first appeared.

The bulky and heavy electronics meant that even the relatively large TBM Avenger could only accommodate a single radar operator behind the pilot. To improve the ability of carrier forces to track incoming threat aircraft, a transmitter linking the radar data back to the carrier was included in the TBM-3W; the antenna can be seen atop the vertical tail surfaces.

TBM-3s were converted to TBM-3Ws on an urgent basis as losses to the Kamikazes mounted. Given the large fiberglass radome on the belly of the aircraft, fins were added to the horizontal tail to improve stability. The concept was to deploy detachments of several AEW aircraft on each carrier.

Despite the best efforts of all concerned, the TBM-3W was not ready in time; by war's end the first detachments were still preparing for deployment.

Postwar, the TBM-3W was further improved to increase radar range and a second aircrewman was added behind the pilot. As the threat of Soviet submarines became apparent, about 160 TBM-3s were converted to improved TBM-3W2 standard and were employed in antisubmarine warfare (ASW) composite squadrons alongside TBM-3S attackers. The Ws and Ss would fly in hunter-killer teams with the TBM-3W2 detecting the subs and the -3S localizing and attacking the subs.

TBM-3W2s were also transferred to a number of allied navies: Canada (Avenger Mk. 3W2), the Netherlands, France and Japan. The AEW Avengers lasted until the mid-1950s in the USN and until about 1960 in some other countries.

The APS-20 was so well regarded that it was incorporated in the USN replacement for the TBM: The Douglas AD Skyraider, which replaced the TBM-3W as the standard carrier-based early warning aircraft and served until the early 1960s as the AD-3W, -4W and -5W. The radar was also used in larger four-engine land-based aircraft such as the Lockheed Warning Star AEW version of the Constellation.

Project Cadillac led to a whole new category of military aircraft, such as Grumman E-1 and E-2, the Boeing E-3 AWACS and the most recent Boeing Wedgetail, along with other nations' airborne warning and control aircraft.

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by Llarry

...The U.S. Navy was searching for improved air defense from air attack on their aircraft carriers. Ship-installed radars could only detect attacking aircraft at limited range due to the curvature of the earth. Increasing the height of the radar also increased the detection range of the radar...

We used to get into "heated" discussions with the navigator when coming back from WESTPACs. We would us the sps-40 radar to get a hit off San Clemente Island's highest point. We could, if one knew what they were looking for, "see" it almost 100 miles out. We would take a bearing off the peak and they would disagree saying there's no way we could do that. Once we got close enough, we used the surface radar to get better fixes. Son of a gun, we were right all along! We were even able to track Bonca boats, with enough experience (they presented a very small target and looked a lot like sea return).

[Llarry]

In 1982 the U.S. Navy carried out ski jump tests for carrier aircraft, among them this F-14A. While under some circumstances the technique was useful, the Navy found that an aircraft fully loaded with fuel and weapons would need beefed-up landing gear to use ski jumps. Carrier aircraft have always had strengthened landing gear to withstand arrested landings, but the engineering and production costs to refit the entire force of aircraft with even stronger gear were considered prohibitive.

[Llarry]

An interesting nearly head-on shot of a U.S. Air Force T-38C landing.

[Llarry]

The U.S. Army is looking for a new helicopter to train Army pilots. The current trainer is the UH-72A Lakota, which has been described as too easy to fly and thus not ideal for training student pilots.

The Eurocopter (now Airbus) UH-72 entered service almost 20 years ago. Despite the type's future replacement for training at Fort Novosel, Alabama (formerly Fort Rucker), over 200 UH-72As and Bs will continue in service for medical evacuation and utility duties.