The Airplane Thread

[Llarry]

You would definitely notice this aircraft if you saw it. Big Crow NKC-135A electronic warfare testing aircraft. A face and figure only a mother could love. Long-since retired. (The N in the designation denotes modified for testing.)

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Llarry

A day late posting this but 65 years ago yesterday the Northrop T-38 Talon first took flight.

In recognition of the stellar contributions of the T-38, here's some more information and a more recent photo.
-- 1,189 T-38As were produced from 1959 to 1972
-- T-38s were operated by a number of users, but presently there are about 500 in use by the USAF, 9 in use by the USN and 32 in use by NASA. Foreign users include Germany (operated in the US with USAF markings) and Turkey.
-- An important fighter aircraft, the Northrop F-5, was derived from the T-38 design and is in wide use: about 2,600 of those were built.

All in all, a major winner for Northrop.

And I did some elementary arithmetic on multiple generations flying the T-38; how about:
-- Great grandpa got his wings in 1958 and was an experienced instructor when the T-38 first came along; he flew it in the 1960s.
-- His son (grandpa) got his wings in 1983 flying the T-38.
-- His son or daughter (mom or dad) got his/her wings in 2009 flying the T-38.
-- His or her daughter is now 14 years old and an excellent student who wants more than anything to be an Air Force pilot. Odds are she will fly the T-38 to get her wings.
That's four generations!

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by Llarry

In recognition of the stellar contributions of the T-38, here's some more information and a more recent photo.
-- 1,189 T-38As were produced from 1959 to 1972
-- T-38s were operated by a number of users, but presently there are about 500 in use by the USAF, 9 in use by the USN and 32 in use by NASA. Foreign users include Germany (operated in the US with USAF markings) and Turkey.
-- An important fighter aircraft, the Northrop F-5, was derived from the T-38 design and is in wide use: about 2,600 of those were built.

All in all, a major winner for Northrop.

And I did some elementary arithmetic on multiple generations flying the T-38; how about:
-- Great grandpa was winged in 1958 and was an experienced instructor when the T-38 first came along; he flew it in the 1960s.
-- His son (grandpa) was winged in 1983, flying the T-38.
-- His son or daughter (mom or dad) was winged in 2009, flying the T-38.
-- His or her daughter is now 14 years old and an excellent student who wants more than anything to be an Air Force pilot. Odds are she will fly the T-38 to get her wings.
That's four generations!

Otherwise known as "The White Rocket", the T-38 is a sexy beast to fly-- Northrop *definitely* got that one right. It can go supersonic and after coming out of the T-37 (the "Tweet", mentioned a while back), it was a HUGE step up in performance (and ability to kill you).

A few fun facts:

- It was the world's first supersonic trainer and had performance better than many of the initial front-line fighters. Due to its "coke bottle" design, the jet can make about Mach 1.3 and handles like a dream due to the short, thin wings. You actually have to wear a g-suit when flying it (i.e. "speed jeans"). You really can't describe the feeling you get the first time you fly the jet-- the Tweet was fairly docile, subsonic, the cockpit was low to the ground, and you sat side-by-side with the instructor. On the -38, you sat high up in the tip of a very narrow cockpit with the instructor behind you. When you pushed the throttles into "Max AB" on takeoff, you'd watch two needles swing as the burner cans constricted. Then it was hold on to your arse, because you were accelerating down the runway FAST-- and it was a race to get the gear up before you oversped them. You had to climb out at 300 knots for performance reasons-- every other aircraft you would ever have flown to that point climbed at far less than that and was restricted to 250 knots below 10,000 feet. You could go from on the runway to 30,000' in something around just over a minute. Did I mention that it's a sexy beast?

- The roll rate was 720 degrees PER SECOND iirc. It was a prohibited maneuver, so of course every solo student pilot ever went out and did a few rolls once they were in the area and scared themselves spitless.

- It was fairly easy to stall it out when "rolling off the perch" (going opposite the direction of landing at about 1000', then doing a descending & slowing 180-degree turn towards the runway threshold) due to those thin wings. The solution was to install an Alpha (Angle of Attack) gauge visual display on the top of the glare shield-- it had two red chevrons, two yellow chevrons and a green doughnut in the middle. You'd "pull to the green" doughnut, which kept you flying-- if you pulled too hard and hit the red chevron (that was bad), the procedure was to roll the wings level, unload the jet and go to max afterburner. It that didn't work, it was time to take your chances ejecting.

- The older T-38's (the ones I flew) had a rocket ejection seat. It was an acceptable seat at the time, but had poor performance in the low-speed/low-altitude regime. I don't remember the exact numbers (it's been 34 years after all), but I do remember that if you got yourself in trouble (i.e. stalled) off the perch, the seat would fire you up at something like 4000' per minute. That was great, except that in a stall, the jet was going down at over 6000' per minute. In other words, you'd hit the ground even while the seat was trying to rocket you up. Sometime around 2010, they put in a Martin-Baker seat that had 0/0 capability-- that's saved about a dozen lives already.

- The AT-38B is a variant of the T-38. It could carry rockets, a gun or dummy bombs in a pod and was used to train pilots transitioning to fighter aircraft.

- In the early 2000's, the T-38 was given a glass cockpit (which must make navigation FAR easier) and a bunch of other upgrades. Better engine injectors, intakes, exhausts and several other upgrades to keep the jet viable.

- There used to be a -38 ACE (Accelerated Copilot Enrichment) program that allowed pilots from airframes that didn't get a lot of flying time to go out and keep their skills up. Mostly bombers, the U-2 and a few others. Being an ACE Instructor was a great (but dead-end) job-- you just flew around with qualified pilots, allowing them to maintain currency. The bombers were usually in... not so good locations, so ACE was a way to get out of town for a while. The T-38 had a range slightly more than 1000 miles, so you could head to the beach for a weekend without too much trouble.

- T-38's have been used as trainers, by NASA as chase aircraft, by the USAF Test Pilot school, as fighter lead-in and as the direct progenitor to the F-5 as a combat-operational aircraft. The F-5 also led to the development of the F-20 Tigershark-- the "best fighter that was never built." The Thunderbirds used to fly them as well-- until they tragically put four of them in the dirt. Eventually, they were replaced by the F-16's they fly today.

Northrop got this one right. I've never, EVER met someone who didn't love the White Rocket from their first ride. It could (and would) kill you if you weren't paying attention, but it was a hoot and a half to fly. You *definitely* knew you were in the "Big-Boy" program when you made it to this far in the UPT syllabus.

R.

PS: "Getting winged" is more of a Navy thing. In the USAF, you "get your wings". Minor detail, but there it is.

R.

[ezaircon4jc]

Most famous T38...

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc

Most famous T38...

Well there were the "MIG-28's" from the original Top Gun......

(Actually mostly DACT F-5's, but there was a T-38 in there for a few seconds).

Here's a fun article about flying the T-38 that I found-- some good "lessons learned" here....

https://www.aviationsafetymagazine.c...from-the-t-38/

[Lady Jane]

Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc

Most famous T38...

From the movie "Dragnet".

https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showp...postcount=1327

[Lady Jane]

The RCAF Bristol Beaufighter Mk10. Unsung hero. Heavy fighter and torpedo bomber.

https://www.silverhawkauthor.com/pos...ol-beaufighter

[vreihen16]

Just saw the news that the Frecce Tricolori (Italian AF) will be performing with the USAF Thunderbirds at our local air show in August.

I also saw that Frecce Tricolori and the RAF Red Arrows will be touring Canada this summer, celebrating the Royal Canadian Air Force's 100th anniversary.....




.

[Llarry]

India is transitioning away from USSR/Russian-supplied aircraft for their Air Force and Navy to Western-supplied or locally developed and produced aircraft.

One of the key players is Hindustani Aircraft Limited (HAL) which has been working on the development of a lightweight fighter for the past 20+ years. The HAL Tejas first flew in 2001 and had a long period of development. The first squadron became operational in 2015. India intends to buy at least 325 Tejas fighters as their Air Force transitions aways from MiG and Sukhoi aircraft.

Initially, the Indian Navy had intended to use a navalized version of the Tejas on aircraft carriers and conducted trials. This plan has now apparently been abandoned. At one point consideration was given to the purchase of American F-18E/F fighters for carrier use; the production of F-18s is soon to end, however. The future for Indian Navy carrier fighters is not clear to me.

India also wanted to use an Indian powerplant for the Tejas but but encountered development issues and so far, the Tejas has used the General Electric F404 engine. A Mark II Tejas is under development and the plan is to use an increased-thrust GE F414 engine in this aircraft.

There are a number of export prospects for the Tejas, but no concrete sales have yet materialized.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Llarry

The HAL Tejas first flew in 2001 and had a long period of development. The first squadron became operational in 2015. //snip//
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas

An interesting competitor to the HAL Tejas is the SAAB JAS 39 Gripen, which is also a lightweight and comparatively low-cost fighter powered by a single GE F414 engine. The empty and max takeoff weights of the two aircraft are similar, as is the internal fuel capacity. The SAAB has had some success in the export market, including the sale of 36 fighters to India -- with the option for 18 more. I would also expect the canard layout of the Gripen to provide an advantage in maneuverability.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS-39_Gripen

The Wikipedia article on the JAS 39 has some eye-opening numbers on cost per flying hour that make the SAAB appear awfully attractive to air forces with limited budgets.

[M-technik-3]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

Just saw the news that the Frecce Tricolori (Italian AF) will be performing with the USAF Thunderbirds at our local air show in August.

I also saw that Frecce Tricolori and the RAF Red Arrows will be touring Canada this summer, celebrating the Royal Canadian Air Force's 100th anniversary.....




.

Closest show to me is Ocean City Md. 6 hour drive is a bit much.

[Lady Jane]

Typhoon vs Gripen.

The Eurofighter Typhoon and the Saab Gripen are both excellent fighter jets. They both have their pros and cons, but in the end, the Typhoon is a better overall jet. It is faster, more maneuverable, and has better avionics. The Gripen is cheaper and lighter, making it a good choice for countries with smaller budgets. However, the Typhoon is the better jet overall.

[M-technik-3]

Originally Posted by Llarry

You would definitely notice this aircraft if you saw it. Big Crow NKC-135A electronic warfare testing aircraft. A face and figure only a mother could love. Long-since retired. (The N in the designation denotes modified for testing.)

Did not know they used it as a target for the airborne laser.

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by M-technik-3

Closest show to me is Ocean City Md. 6 hour drive is a bit much.

FWIW, the New York International Air Show (8/10-11) is under two hours from Alice's Restaurant in Stockbridge, MA, right off of I-84.....

[M-technik-3]

Missed that. Might be worth the journey down. Been awhile since I have been to Stewart.

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by M-technik-3

Missed that. Might be worth the journey down. Been awhile since I have been to Stewart.

The show is actually at KMGJ (Orange County Airport) a few miles from Stewart. The runways at KMGJ are too short for military jets, so they all stage and park for the nights at Stewart in an area not open to the public.....

[Llarry]

Anyone want a fixer-upper C-130? These are at AMARG at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Arizona. Buy two and get a third one free!
No warranty included.

[Lady Jane]

Originally Posted by Llarry

Anyone want a fixer-upper C-130? These are at AMARG at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Arizona. Buy two and get a third one free!
No warranty included.

Coulson Aviation bought five ex-Norwegian C-130s to be converted to fire bombers.

Interesting articles here:

https://fireaviation.com/2020/04/20/...afb-in-tucson/


https://fireaviation.com/2020/04/20/...afb-in-tucson/

[vreihen16]

I saw a news article the other day that they are pulling a B-1 out of mothballs for active service, to replace one that was lost.....

[Llarry]

In the mid-1970s, all the World War II-built (and subsequently modernized) aircraft carriers were finally retired after 30+ years of service, including some hard years of wartime service in WWII, Korea and Vietnam.

With the retirement of those ships -- which could not easily operate either the heavy F-4 Phantom or heavier F-14 Tomcat -- the Vought F-8 Crusader fighter was retired as well.

However, the F-8 was the last Navy/Marine fighter to be built in a dedicated photo reconnaissance version as well and a few (perhaps a dozen or so) RF-8G photo birds continued in service in two small squadrons in the Navy Reserve. While the RF-8 was not as pretty as the fighter version, as a confirmed Crusader-holic I'd take any Crusader I could get.

Here they are in 1980: RF-8Gs of VFP-206 and VFP-306. They would not last too many years longer.

[Llarry]

If you'll permit this F-8 fan one more photo, here's one of a section takeoff by two Marine Corps Reserve F-8Ks of VMF-321 in a very attractive livery. Ah, the old days...

A 1970s patch stated: "When you're out of F-8s, you're out of fighters." (A reference to the lack of a gun on the Navy F-4s; rectified on the F-14.)

[Llarry]

Yesterday marked 72 years since the first flight of the Boeing YB-52 Stratofortress. Amazingly, the B-52H is still in service today and a B-52J with upgraded engines is under development.