BMW M says future bleak for manual transmission, M cars to top out at 600 HP for now

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by Twhill19

Mercedes AMG will own the HP and performance market

Not if the most recent C63 vs M4 shootout is any indication. Besides, when did Mercedes AMG last offer a manual transmission?

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

BMW has continued to sell the same number of manual tranny cars, just that their sales have increased in total, so the take rate of manuals is going down.

Good article here:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...l-transmisson/

I think that sums it up pretty well.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Not if the most recent C63 vs M4 shootout is any indication. Besides, when did Mercedes AMG last offer a manual transmission?

I don't believe there has ever been a manual AMG car in the US (or anywhere else, for that matter).

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Twhill19

Mercedes AMG will own the HP and performance market

Its not just about HP...
Its all very well boasting about figures but at the end of the day, you need originality,innovation and precision to back up that performance.
M cars don't shout about the figures there is so much more that is considered important and now BMW M have the weight side of the argument progressing very quickly.

[B-1Pilot]

I just wish all these MT guys would go back to sending letters through the mail -- its way more rewarding, anyways -- and get off our technologically advanced internet

For the people who think the P-car GT4 is a manual because of performance you are way wrong. It is about a business decision to reduce it's performance. If you don't understand this, you don't understand the automotive business. You probably also don't understand that the M5/M6 is the BMW apex car for performance, not the M3 or M4, and always has been. In the business sense, and in very typical German fashion, the lesser car (in price) will not exceed the performance capabilities of the higher one. There will always be a performance progression from 1M -> M2-> M3/4 -> M5/M6.

Similarly, the only way manual stays around is if the take rates make it economically feasible for BMW to continue building them.

For who was asking on the MT vs DCT take rates --

E9X M3s in US, take rate was about 45% Manual
E60 M5 and E63 M6 in US, take rate was about 15% which is why it was dropped for the F10/F12

i dont know what the F80 take rate is currently, but if its anywhere above I would say 30% they should offer a manual for the M2. If they are going to do more than a limited run, they will have to do a DCT of some sort as well...
Scott's post above confirms that market demand for MT in the M2/3/4 will keep it alive for at least another generation.. I suspect if the Fxx and Gxx take rates work out to be high enough they will continue making MTs for the customers that want them.

Why we keep getting our collective panties in a twist on this before the unveil of the M2 is beside me -- its gonna have an MT variant, the real question is whether its going to be a ZF AT or an M-DCT as well.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by B-1Pilot

I just wish all these MT guys would go back to sending letters through the mail -- its way more rewarding, anyways -- and get off our technologically advanced internet

I guess when they start offering food in pill form, you'll be the first to jump on board because chewing, tasting, and reveling in the flavor is sooooooo 2015 and pills are simply faster.

Driving an automatic is like banging with a rubber... sure, you'll get your rocks off but the sensation just isn't the same.

Originally Posted by B-1Pilot

i dont know what the F80 take rate is currently, but if its anywhere above I would say 30% they should offer a manual for the M2. If they are going to do more than a limited run, they will have to do a DCT of some sort as well...

Why? The 2er sells in pretty small numbers anyway. Even if they did a run of 5,000 and all were manual, they would sell out. If anything, the poor business decision would be to offer the DCT at all.

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

Driving an automatic is like banging with a rubber... sure, you'll get your rocks off but the sensation just isn't the same.

Haha, I love that analogy.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by B-1Pilot

I just wish all these MT guys would go back to sending letters through the mail -- its way more rewarding, anyways -- and get off our technologically advanced internet

For the people who think the P-car GT4 is a manual because of performance you are way wrong. It is about a business decision to reduce it's performance. If you don't understand this, you don't understand the automotive business. You probably also don't understand that the M5/M6 is the BMW apex car for performance, not the M3 or M4, and always has been. In the business sense, and in very typical German fashion, the lesser car (in price) will not exceed the performance capabilities of the higher one. There will always be a performance progression from 1M -> M2-> M3/4 -> M5/M6.

Similarly, the only way manual stays around is if the take rates make it economically feasible for BMW to continue building them.

For who was asking on the MT vs DCT take rates --

E9X M3s in US, take rate was about 45% Manual
E60 M5 and E63 M6 in US, take rate was about 15% which is why it was dropped for the F10/F12

i dont know what the F80 take rate is currently, but if its anywhere above I would say 30% they should offer a manual for the M2. If they are going to do more than a limited run, they will have to do a DCT of some sort as well...
Scott's post above confirms that market demand for MT in the M2/3/4 will keep it alive for at least another generation.. I suspect if the Fxx and Gxx take rates work out to be high enough they will continue making MTs for the customers that want them.

Why we keep getting our collective panties in a twist on this before the unveil of the M2 is beside me -- its gonna have an MT variant, the real question is whether its going to be a ZF AT or an M-DCT as well.

I'm curious Why do you or anyone else want to kill the manual? It's not stopping you from having your silly computer do your shifting at exactly the wrong time or not downshifting enough etc. You still have your crappy boring obtrusive dct. We just don't want the jot of driving sucked out of our lives. I guess if it isn't the way you like it shouldn't exist. Guess any car that isn't just like yours shouldn't exist either

As for rates and business sense, if BMW wants to kill the manual, of the 45% who bought them. More than half would probably go elsewhere. If BM W thinks loosing 25% of its sales is cheaper than offering the manual, have at it. Manual sales for corvettes and hellcats will spike I'm sure.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by JasonCSU

Haha, I love that analogy.

Not bad.


I guess keeping the same sex analogy going.

Manual drivers spend most of their time using their hand.

When it gets older n worn, it's hard to get it in first time, often can pop out.

If their not careful everything can just stall, then they have to use both hands just to get it all going again.

I guess they just ain't happy without a knob in their hand...

[Fundguy1]

At least we have a knob and know how to use it.

[Alpine F31]

Originally Posted by B-1Pilot

For the people who think the P-car GT4 is a manual because of performance you are way wrong. It is about a business decision to reduce it's performance. If you don't understand this, you don't understand the automotive business.

Or, could it be that Porsche listened to it's customers that demand a more engaging, analog experience in a GT car? That's what Andreas Preuninger said.
I think I'll take his word for it. He may know more than we do.

[B-1Pilot]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

I'm curious Why do you or anyone else want to kill the manual? It's not stopping you from having your silly computer do your shifting at exactly the wrong time or not downshifting enough etc. You still have your crappy boring obtrusive dct. We just don't want the jot of driving sucked out of our lives. I guess if it isn't the way you like it shouldn't exist. Guess any car that isn't just like yours shouldn't exist either

As for rates and business sense, if BMW wants to kill the manual, of the 45% who bought them. More than half would probably go elsewhere. If BM W thinks loosing 25% of its sales is cheaper than offering the manual, have at it. Manual sales for corvettes and hellcats will spike I'm sure.

Why do you think I want to kill the manual? I just want the M-DCT; I couldn't care less what any of you buy.... However the constant inference that manual is better or that manual drivers are better is what bothers me. As a BMW stockholder, I also understand why MTs are not a priority, because they are not necessarily the most profitable.

FWIW... I operate a $300 million high performance vehicle for a living...technology always trumps nostalgia for performance.

Finally, can you spots the two MTs in my driveway?

[Fundguy1]

Manuals aren't better. They're more fun. And at the moment they are better if you plan on making over 500hp reliably ad the dct has problems in the 500-600 hp range in the configuration that came on our cars. But it's the fun factor that makes it better otherwise. Autos just aren't fun and often are intrusive shifting at the wrong times.

[B-1Pilot]

Originally Posted by Alpine F31

Or, could it be that Porsche listened to it's customers that demand a more engaging, analog experience in a GT car? That's what Andreas Preuninger said.
I think I'll take his word for it. He may know more than we do.

Maybe he does... maybe he knows that a PDK equipped GT4 starts to outperform the 991s, and they don't want that to happen anymore than BMW wants the M2 to outperform the M3/4.*

I am actively shopping both Cayman GTS and M2 for my next fun car... Fun will be the operative word. Based on my personal driving experiences on the track and otherwise I will be selecting a car with PDK or M-DCT.

I am glad so many of you like manual that you keep the market open for them here in the US. When I want to row my own, I take out one of my old vehicles with MT and do it. However, not for a second do I see them as better performing. When this performance split gets big enough, car makers will be forced to make a hard decision of which tranny to build -- I think they should select the higher performer -- like they did on the F10/F12s. For the entry level M-cars and P-cars, that remains to be seen.

*An addendum, the clever and innovative way around this is are the CSL/GTS Monikers... How those play out in performance/transmission/cost Will be interesting to watch the coming months

[captainaudio]

I think many here need to learn the concept of "In my opinion" and "I prefer".

How does anyone here know what someone else considers fun or tedious?

Yet these opinions are frequently put forth here as if they were statements of fact.

[Needbmwpartzz]

They should make an automatic with simulated manual in which you can row your own gears and it will not interrupt once put in that mode and then we can have the best of both worlds in one car.
Has this been done yet?

[Labeef]

Originally Posted by Kwando

Realistically, the general population of buyers probably don't need more than 400hp to drive to work and push it on the weekends. Heck, even that might be pushing it. I rather BMW focus on reducing weight and continuing to advance carbon fibre technology.

This.

Most of the high HP cars are boats. Sticking current HP figures and dropping weight should be priority. In addition, it will benefit emissions.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by Labeef

This.

Most of the high HP cars are boats. Sticking current HP figures and dropping weight should be priority. In addition, it will benefit emissions.

And increase mileage. No argument here

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Labeef

This.

Most of the high HP cars are boats. Sticking current HP figures and dropping weight should be priority. In addition, it will benefit emissions.

Hard to fit a W16 with quad turbos into an Exige chassis lol. Seriously though, the only one who's doing that properly is probably Pagani.

[F83]

All I know is, I'll keep buying manuals for as long as BMW (or others) will sell them to me. I do believe I will see the day when that comes to an end though. When that day comes, the last good manuals will appreciate in value.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by F83

All I know is, I'll keep buying manuals for as long as BMW (or others) will sell them to me. I do believe I will see the day when that comes to an end though. When that day comes, the last good manuals will appreciate in value.

And I'll buy used.

[C5driver]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Manuals aren't better. They're more fun.

I would tend to agree, but this is also subjective speculation.

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

the dct has problems in the 500-600 hp range in the configuration that came on our cars.

Never had any problems with my 633hp/576tq. However, there's some chatter over on the F13 side with the guys putting down 800-1300HP.

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Autos just aren't fun and often are intrusive shifting at the wrong times.

Depends on the program selected, and in rush hour traffic, I've never had this problem with the DCT. You can always row your own as well...