The Airplane Thread

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

Couldn't you just divert that DC3 to a nearby GA airport or even a grass strip, and tell the pilot that a bus will get his passengers to LAX faster?????

I WISH!! Then, where would be the challenge & fun?

It was at SLC and they were a local cargo flight. There is a daily DC3 flight between Catalina Island and LGB hauling supplies.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by M5_1of400

No BONE love here?

After 20 years in the AF working next to the flight line for many of those years, I can't think of any other plane that would knock pictures off the walls taking off.

Oh, yeah, we've got B-1 love, too. If it's an aircraft and starts with a letter or a number, we love it.

[Llarry]

More BONE...

(Re the third photo, the B-1B is the heavyweight of the USAF bomber trio. With its three bomb bays, it can carry more than the B-52H or B-2A)

[Llarry]

1) B-1B with flaps down but gear up

2) Depiction of B-1B weapons options in the three bomb bays

3) B-2A bomb drop

4) B-2A underside

5) B-2A weapons options

6) Ultrasecret B-3A

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Llarry

6) Ultrasecret B-3A

Oops! My bad! According to the U.S. Department of Defense, the number that comes after two is not three, but twenty-one. (Much like in the fighter category, the number that comes after 23 is 35.)

1) B-21A (not yet operational)

2) An interesting photo from overhead that shows how much smaller the B-21 is than its predecessor the B-2.

[Llarry]

Speaking of bombers, the most numerous U.S. bomber outside the United States in December 1941 at the beginning of U.S. involvement in World War II was...

The Douglas B-18 Bolo. The B-18 is now but a minor footnote in aviation history but was important to the Army in the late 1930s: 350 were purchased. The B-18 was derived from Douglas' DC-2 airliner, with greater span and a very different fuselage. The Douglas bloodline can be seen in the tail.

The overseas B-18s were in Panama and the Philippines. Those in the Philippines were mostly destroyed on the ground in the initial Japanese strikes.

By comparison to the Boeing B-17 and the Consolidated B-24, the B-18 was not too impressive. It was soon relegated to anti-submarine (ASW) patrol work in the Atlantic -- and the Royal Canadian Air Force bought some which they called the Digby. 122 B-18As were modified with ASW equipment and had some successes; both USAAF B-18s and RCAF Digbys conducted successful attacks on German U-boats. By 1943, even that relatively non-demanding mission was a bit much for the Bolo and they were replaced with B-24 Liberators that had much better armament and range.

The first photo is of an early B-18 in pre-war markings in the collection of the National Museum of the USAF and the second is of a B-18B with ASW modifications. Sort of homely, aren't they?

[flybigjet]

Regarding the B-2, B-21, etc.

Each aircraft are estimated to (conservatively) cost ~$2B per aircraft.

Yes, that's with a B.

So-- you take your super-stealthy aircraft (that can't fly in the rain) and use it on a conventional target. EVERY TIME it takes off, you have to assess the risk of it crashing (either by mechanical/pilot failure, enemy action, etc).

Two questions:

1. What POSSIBLE conventional target can you use it against that's worth at least $2B?

2. If someone shoots you down with an inexpensive manpad (i.e. hand-held surface to air missile) after you're done with your conventional bomb run..... who really won the engagement?

When I was in the AF we used to joke that if you pulled the ejection handle a screen would light up and say "This jet is worth far more than you are: Try harder".

R.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...e-ever-207195#

https://www.cnn.com/style/article/b-...er/index.html#

[Lady Jane]

Originally Posted by flybigjet

1. What POSSIBLE conventional target can you use it against that's worth at least $2B?

Don't forget the price of the ordnance.

[snowbimmer]

Ok, Llarry and Lady Jane ..............

Rough estimate: how many individual and unique aircraft have been designed and put into US military service?

And the corollary question: How many total aircraft is that?

Gotta be mind boggling numbers. For example, there were 12,731 B-17s produced. Don't care about the A,B,C,D......designations. So, the B-17 counts as one unique aircraft.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by snowbimmer

Ok, Llarry and Lady Jane ..............

Rough estimate: how many individual and unique aircraft have been designed and put into US military service?

And the corollary question: How many total aircraft is that?

Gotta be mind boggling numbers. For example, there were 12,731 B-17s produced. Don't care about the A,B,C,D......designations. So, the B-17 counts as one unique aircraft.

Mind boggling indeed -- I don't have a clue. Maybe the key qualifier there is "put into service" which would exclude the aircraft that were only prototypes. So the B-70 wouldn't qualify, for instance.

[snowbimmer]

Originally Posted by Llarry

Mind boggling indeed -- I don't have a clue. Maybe the key qualifier there is "put into service" which would exclude the aircraft that were only prototypes. So the B-70 wouldn't qualify, for instance.

Yeah, there's probably hundreds of prototypes that never made it.

You could probably just go back over your posts on this thread. Must've talked about 75% of them already.


It's shocking what this thread has turned into.

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

Don't forget the price of the ordnance.

You mean like the rounds for the 155mm Advanced Gun System that just got removed from the Zumwalt class destroyers?

(Heh-- a destroyer without a gun. Go figure).

**Each** individual round ended up costing between $800,000 - $1M.

Yes. Per round.

That little faux pas ended up costing hundreds of millions with literally nothing to show for it.

R.

[Lady Jane]

Originally Posted by snowbimmer

Ok, Llarry and Lady Jane ..............

Rough estimate: how many individual and unique aircraft have been designed and put into US military service?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...9%E2%80%931962)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ions_(pre-1962)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_U...ations_and_use

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...t_designations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...t_designations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._United_States

[snowbimmer]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...%E2%80%931962)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ons_(pre-1962)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_U...ations_and_use

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...t_designations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...t_designations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._United_States

Gonna need a spreadsheet here🤣

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...9%E2%80%931962)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ions_(pre-1962)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_U...ations_and_use

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...t_designations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...t_designations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._United_States

That's a good start. A project for a snowed-in weekend or perhaps a snowed-in week. One of my standard Navy/Marine references is the UK book -- published in the USA by the Naval Institute Press -- which would be a pretty good start on the Navy side, as it has an index lists all types with a designation.

Another book that I have is America's Hundred Thousand which has good numbers for the 100,000 fighters built in the USA during World War II. But the most-produced aircraft of all during the war was the B-24 bomber, so fighters are just part of the story. It is an indicator, however, of the magnitude of the problem.

If this were a quiz show, my wild-ass guess would be a quarter million or maybe 300,000 U.S. military aircraft 1903-2024, excluding those which were prototypes only.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

Don't forget the price of the ordnance.

When talking about cost/benefit, this is a key piece of data. For instance, I think recently we've been shooting down $50,000 Houthi drones with million dollar missiles.

[Lady Jane]

Originally Posted by Llarry

When talking about cost/benefit, this is a key piece of data. For instance, I think recently we've been shooting down $50,000 Houthi drones with million dollar missiles.

True but this $50K drone could cause millions in damages if not destroyed, right?

[vreihen16]

...and Ukraine is sinking Russian navy ships essentially using glorified radio-controlled speedboats like they sell at Tower Hobbies.....

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

True but this $50K drone could cause millions in damages if not destroyed, right?

Indeed, and that makes it worthwhile.

[ezaircon4jc]

I worked this departure sector for many, many years. I have NO idea what this "controller" was doing. First mistake was climbing both of them; even though he never climbed ACA. We used to train "paper stops" to keep the second guy below the first guy in this situation. Why he turned ACA to 110 is way beyond me! I always gave a left turn to 360, then direct LAX when they were pointed in the correct (north) direction. For noise abatement, the a/c is supposed to fly over LAX on their way northeast. This is happening "regularly" at LAX and is one of the reasons I drive and refuse to fly!

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Llarry

If this were a quiz show, my wild-ass guess would be a quarter million or maybe 300,000 U.S. military aircraft 1903-2024, excluding those which were prototypes only.

OK, the original question was U.S. military aircraft, so I went back to the Wikipedia article on most-produced aircraft and did a rough hand count of only U.S. military aircraft produced in quantity of 5,000 or more. Then I added the Sikorsky H-60, which was not on the list but should be as of 2023. I came up with a total of 333,000 aircraft.

That total excludes a number of aircraft built in large numbers (but less than 5,000 each): F-100, F-15, F-16, F-18, A-1, A-4, B-29, B-47, etc. Therefore, I have to revise my guess to 400,000 or more.

The grand champion is the Consolidated B-24 Liberator, with 18,482 built.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Llarry

The grand champion is the Consolidated B-24 Liberator, with 18,482 built.

And here are the rest of the top ten:
2) Douglas C-47 & DC-3 -- 16,079
3) Bell UH-1 Huey -- 16,000+
4) Republic P-47 Thunderbolt -- 15,660
5) North American P-51 Mustang -- 15,586
6) North American T-6 Texan & Harvard -- 15,495
7) Waco CG-4 (assault glider) -- 13,903+
8) Curtiss P-40 Warhawk -- 13,738
9) Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress -- 12,731
10) Vought F4U Corsair -- 12,571

The theme is consistent: Except for the Huey, all this amazing production happened in World War II. The American aviation industry (with a significant assist from Canada as the two economies were intertwined to an extent) shifted into high gear and the output was phenomenal. I would say never to be seen again. But World War II was an incredible effort by the entire nation. I used to think that the Greatest Generation of that era was made up of the (almost exclusively) men who fought the battles. But it was the mobilization of the whole nation, including women who had never worked before but worked in aircraft factories, etc., for a couple of years and contributed mightily to that prodigious output. Little kids collected scrap metal to contribute to the war effort. There was a national speed limit of 25 miles per hour on the roads to save gas and tires. Many more examples could be cited. I am amazed by what the whole nation did.

I doubt that we could do it again.