F1 2024: Saudi Arabian GP - Jeddah (Mar 9)

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Max literally destroys the field in a way no one has since Sch and unlike Ham, he doesnt have 80-100 more hp than every other car on the grid, never got secret tire tests, and they arent doing it by spending $50-100MM more than everyone else - he is doing it purely on what he is able to do with the car.

By saying this, you're HEAVILY discounting the RB20. It's not VER skills that make him faster than everyone else, it's his ability in driving the RB20 that makes him faster than everyone else. Not the same thing.

Everyone's argument of driver vs. car fits what they want to believe. What Red Bull is doing now is the same thing that Mercedes did for 8 years but in different ways - Mercedes was fast largely because it had an engine advantage, Red Bull is fast because they literally have the perfectly aerodynamic car for this set of regulations. You still need a driver able to pilot such a vehicle but lets not pretend that the driver makes the car.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

Everyone's argument of driver vs. car fits what they want to believe.

It's 33% driver, 33% car, 33% team. And those numbers change ad hoc as the situation seems fit.
I mean, look at how big the difference between Max and Checo sometimes is.
It can be up to 0,8sec in qualifying, and 1sec/lap in long runs. And Checo is a seasoned F1 driver with a lot of experience. So a driver can make a huge difference.
But also look at the immense strategy and pitstop mistakes both Ferrari and Merc have made in the last 3 years. Like not being ready, not knowing how or when to double stack, missing tyres etc, and those are the huge mistakes we see and pick up. The real difference is in the detail. You know, when Max still has a set of fresh softs and other teams not because he (well, probably Hanna) decided to skip a practice or Q1 run on fresh softs etc that magically gives him the edge when that SC situation arrives....
These very little tweaks are not to be underestimated.
In the last few years RB seems to have their racestrategy and pitbox organisation tip top. The one mistake I can remember was when they had too little fuel in Q3, that was a session with rain/potential rain so Max had to run inlet laps faster than projected or something like that. A rare fluke, but I'm sure they're not gonna make that mistake again.
So to dominate, you have to have all 3 of these things tip top.
I believe that if say ferrari last year (or the year before that) had the RB18/19, but with Checo and another similar main driver, and Max was at RB but with the ferrari car, but with the RB team and strategy, Max still would have won the WDC. However I'm convinced he wouldn't have won if he was in LEC's seat, with all the #ferrarithings and LEC was in Max' seat with the excellent car and excellent teamwork backing him.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Horribly boring, I'm struggling to see how it can get much worse for viewers of this sport. I'm even fast forwarding through the "Race in 30 minutes" option on F1 TV.
F1's product right now is complete garbage.

Originally Posted by NickyC

All it did was prove F1 has everything to do with the car. That was plainly obvious in what we saw today. An 18 year old with almost no seat time beats a seven time champion. How could that remotely come down to driver skill?
It's the car, and it's why this sport has become unbearable to watch. The outcome is predetermined, with 18 cars on the grid having no chance at victory. There is no competition, and in sport there is always supposed to be competition. F1 absolutely sucks right now.

Originally Posted by NickyC

I'm not going to lie to myself and act like this a fun sport to watch. It's not, it's complete garbage right now with predetermined outcomes and ZERO competitiveness. Take the DRS gimmick out and nobody is passing anybody unless RB has a bad qualifying and then passes everybody in front by lap 4. It's just SOOO exciting to see people fight for 7th and 8th place, wow what a thrill! I will continue to fast forward to the "Race in 30" deal on F1 TV, and even that is a complete waste of time.

Originally Posted by NickyC

Not to mention the fact we at least had Rosberg who was a thorn in Ham's side and won a DWC, even Bottas to some degree fought back. Now, we're saddled with the best driver of a generation, the best car ever, and his teammate Checo is just absolutely thrilled to take 2nd every race with the best job on the planet. There is no fight in that dog. The whole situation is absolutely terrible. This isn't racing, this isn't competitiveness, this is a Sunday display of fast cars and nothing else. BORING.

Same as it ever was. But the cars still need to be raced and race strategies need to be determined and executed.

Let's go back in time.

In 1981 and 1982 Prost was getting closer to getting a WDC title with Renault (1981: P5 with a 7-point difference to WDC Piquet | 1982: P4 with a 10-point difference to WDC Keke Rosberg) ...despite an approx. 50% DNF rate for Prost (1981: 9 DNFs out of 15 races | 1982: 9 DNFs and 1 DNC out of 16 races). Renault engine unreliability was a massive handicap for Prost those days. Renault were the pioneers of turbo engines, but struggled to master reliability. Nevertheless, Prost "Le Professeur" still managed to contend for the WDC.

For the 1983 season the skies of engine woes had cleared for Prost. Renault had mostly remedied the engine reliability issue for his car (however, 8 DNFs out of 15 races for Prost's team mate Eddie Cheever in 1983). Prost was leading the WDC season, followed by the Brabham BMW raced by Piquet and both Ferraris raced by Arnoux and Tambay. Miraculously no engine failures during the first 11 races - Prost was soaring towards the 1983 WDC title ...that he never got. All went wrong during races #12 (Zandvoort), #13 (Monza) and #15 (Kyalami) out of 15 races.

During the Zandvoort 1983 race weekend, Prost seemed out of focus: he was allegedly caught in bed with the wife of his Renault team principal G.L. (imagine Horner returning to his hotel room to pick up a forgotten briefcase, catching Verstappen in bed with Geri Halliwell) and during the Zandvoort race, Prost crashed into Piquet while trying to overtake him (DNF for both Prost and Piquet). Prost admitted that he was to be blamed for the accident. Piquet was not upset, considering that mistakes can happen.

End of the 1983 season for Prost: DNF at Zandvoort (Piquet DNF too), DNF at Monza (Piquet P1), P2 at Brands Hatch (Piquet P1) and DNF at Kyalami (Piquet P3). Final result: the WDC title slipped out of Prost's hands. During the final race at Kyalami, Prost was still leading the WDC with 57 points, while Piquet was P2 with 55 points. As Prost DNF'd and Piquet got 4 points for P3, Piquet won the 1983 WDC title in extremis with a 2-point difference to Prost (59 points versus 57 points). Only two days after the final race at Kyalami, Renault with disgruntled team principal G.L. fired Prost.

For 1984 Prost moved to McLaren. He narrowly lost the 1984 WDC to his McLaren team mate Niki Lauda with only a half point (71.5 points versus 72 points). He got WDC titles in 1985, 1986, 1989 (controversial Senna crash at Suzuka) and 1993. He could have gotten more F1 WDC titles than the 4 he got in the end. Other WDC winners between 1981 and 1993: Piquet, Rosberg, Lauda, Senna and Mansell. After Prost left, Schumacher entered the WDC title chat.

NickyC, do you want to go back to those DNF galore times ?

Prost and Piquet crash - Zandvoort 1983:

[Davil]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Holy Moly just seen the F1 highlights, can't someone lock Crofty up and throw away the key..how can anyone choose him to continue commentating on F1.

I watch it in my home cinema. The sound mixing when in car was so bad that I could not hear the commentary.

The only positive is that when Lance crashed the car on purpose to show the new Aston Martin Vantage I got to hear how awesome it sounds.

No one commented on Haas. That was a fascinating battle.

As always my comment to the it’s boring crowd. There are 20 drivers. 3 podium place. Points awarded for top 10. Saying it is boring is a commentary on oneself.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Davil

I watch it in my home cinema. The sound mixing when in car was so bad that I could not hear the commentary.

The only positive is that when Lance crashed the car on purpose to show the new Aston Martin Vantage I got to hear how awesome it sounds.

No one commented on Haas. That was a fascinating battle.

As always my comment to the it’s boring crowd. There are 20 drivers. 3 podium place. Points awarded for top 10. Saying it is boring is a commentary on oneself.

Lance barely touched the barrier with the left wheel, the wafer thin track rod broke and the right wheel wouldn't even turn to avoid the next barrier, what sort of steering set up is that.

[Davil]

This is very cool.

https://twitter.com/formuladdict/status/17...OYZo6iw0CJ-33g

[Davil]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Lance barely touched the barrier with the left wheel, the wafer thin track rod broke and the right wheel wouldn't even turn to avoid the next barrier, what sort of steering set up is that.

A flimsy one or maybe a million to one shot. Like fusilli Jerry.

Last years car was always solid in scrapes.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Davil

A flimsy one or maybe a million to one shot. Like fusilli Jerry.

Last years car was always solid in scrapes.

Love watching Seinfeld

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Most entertaining part was Bearman

Bearman is the youngest driver ever to score points in his first F1 race.

Pulling off that feat at one of the most physically demanding circuits of the calendar, is a claim to fame.

Youngest winner remains Max Verstappen (18 years, 228 days - 2016 Spanish Grand Prix).

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Bearman is the youngest driver ever to score points in his first F1 race.

Pulling off that feat at one of the most physically demanding circuits of the calendar, is a claim to fame.

Youngest winner remains Max Verstappen (18 years, 228 days - 2016 Spanish Grand Prix).

Attachment 3406601

Can't believe Bearman is an Essex lad, I heard Chelmsford somewhere.

[offshore]

Bearman did amazing. Would of been awesome if Ferrari gave chance for him vs signing Lewis.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Can't believe Bearman is an Essex lad, I heard Chelmsford somewhere.

What a trophy !

[offshore]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Can't believe Bearman is an Essex lad, I heard Chelmsford somewhere.

What a trophy !

They always have one of the coolest trophies in those tracks! It’s awesome.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Not to mention the fact we at least had Rosberg who was a thorn in Ham's side and won a DWC, even Bottas to some degree fought back. Now, we're saddled with the best driver of a generation, the best car ever, and his teammate Checo is just absolutely thrilled to take 2nd every race with the best job on the planet. There is no fight in that dog. The whole situation is absolutely terrible. This isn't racing, this isn't competitiveness, this is a Sunday display of fast cars and nothing else. BORING.

I see this a bit differently. Ham was never good enough to truly dominate his teammates and, in fact, let below average drivers stay close to him and in the case of Ros got beaten by him. But those years were simply knowing which of 2 cars would win and often enough Ham wasnt good enough to pass and needed team order to swap.
Currently, Max's talent and ability to drive a hard to drive car very fast and consistently to the point no one can keep remotely close is something we should all marvel at since he is far more talented than Ham ever was given the parity within the sport right now.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

What a trophy !

Kelly will be wanting that one to put flowers in it maybe, it belongs to MAX not RBR after all
RBR have their own Constructors trophy.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I see this a bit differently. Ham was never good enough to truly dominate his teammates and, in fact, let below average drivers stay close to him and in the case of Ros got beaten by him. But those years were simply knowing which of 2 cars would win and often enough Ham wasnt good enough to pass and needed team order to swap.
Currently, Max's talent and ability to drive a hard to drive car very fast and consistently to the point no one can keep remotely close is something we should all marvel at since he is far more talented than Ham ever was given the parity within the sport right now.

I don't disagree, I'm just saying that due to what you mentioned above I have serious difficulty staying awake during these races now.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Same as it ever was. But the cars still need to be raced and race strategies need to be determined and executed.

Let's go back in time.

NickyC, do you want to go back to those DNF galore times ?

Actually, yes I do. I want the engine rules tossed out, I want refueling back, I want everything back that added randomness to the sport. Anything to make this thing watchable again.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Kelly will be wanting that one to put flowers in it maybe, it belongs to MAX not RBR after all
RBR have their own Constructors trophy.

This has beaten the FerrariThings !!!

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Actually, yes I do. I want the engine rules tossed out, I want refueling back, I want everything back that added randomness to the sport. Anything to make this thing watchable again.

Are you sure ?

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

By saying this, you're HEAVILY discounting the RB20. It's not VER skills that make him faster than everyone else, it's his ability in driving the RB20 that makes him faster than everyone else. Not the same thing.

Everyone's argument of driver vs. car fits what they want to believe. What Red Bull is doing now is the same thing that Mercedes did for 8 years but in different ways - Mercedes was fast largely because it had an engine advantage, Red Bull is fast because they literally have the perfectly aerodynamic car for this set of regulations. You still need a driver able to pilot such a vehicle but lets not pretend that the driver makes the car.

I dont disagree on that they (car and driver) are both pertinent, but having 80-100 more hp than every other car is way more advantage than aero will ever get you and it literally meant that average drivers could win as we witnessed year after year. Statistically the W11, W05, W06, W07 were all more dominant than the RB18/19 cars have been. Despite that, during those years, Max's cars during that era were not nearly as competitive as the current MB was able to win races whereas Ham cannot now. If Max were driving the MB during those years Ham would have not won nearly as much as he had.
The ground effect cars as I understand do require a bit more finesse in how thy are driven and that is where Max constantly adapts to the car. There have been plenty of times we have seen it lean towards and understeery car and he is still able to extract the max out of it with that set-up. Few guys on the grid IMO can drive a car well if not to their exact liking.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Are you sure ?

Poor Jos had to suffer trying out a trick fill nozzle into filler port that malfunctioned, Briatore had a lot to answer for in his chequered career.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

This has beaten the FerrariThings !!!

AM are chancing a lot of parts for lightness in that car, the track rod should never have broken after so light a touch, track rods should be steel all the way through and the other wheel was not responding to steering input.,so if one breaks the other should still work.