Why have BMW and other luxury automakers moved from DCT to traditional AT?

[Vivek.]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

it’s also very reliable. and you can add 40% tq without fucking up the transmission. while DCT is clearly more fun, ZF8 should be the modders choice.

The stock DCT can also take 40% more torque than factory and with upgraded clutches it can take 2-3 times more torque than the car originally came with (depending on which engine we're talking about, the Getrag 7DCL750 has been used in a variety of vehicles for over a decade). I understand that it's not officially rated for that much but it's a stout box.

xHP now has a tune for the BMW DCT. Why do you say the ZF8 should be a modder's choice?

[fiveohwblow]

I have a dct, smg, zf8 and manual cars. All right now. My programmed zf isn’t faster than the dct and the smg is by far the roughest. The automatic is well known to behave quite differently when heat comes into the equation.

Calling a dct an auto is a misnomer as well. There is no torque converter on the manual variants but those who clutch their levers like the finest of pearls will argue semantics until blue in the face.

The answer to this thread is obvious. Add weight. Add easier trans. Add flashy (albeit ugly) exterior it’s the demographic they are targeting. If you don’t think there were focus groups, studies and money spent on identifying trends you’re fooling yourself. If you think the auto is a more enthusiast option, you’ve ignored the concurrent trends.

[Humdizzle]

i've experienced dct, manual, and the zf8 auto

most of the complaints against dct here are people that want a daily driver and not a sports car. meaning they dont want to feel clutches slipping in 1st from a stop or a jerky downshift. This can easily be negated by driving the dct like a manual how it was intended. I drove my 458 and GTR like this, 99% of the time i was shifting. the only time i put it in auto was if i had a drink or on the phone.

i had a zf8 in my f30 335. it was awful when pushing the car hard. like flying into a corner with the abs flashing, i ask for a downshift and the car isn't sure what to do for a split second. or sometimes it doesn't register at all and i have to hit it again to get the shift. never experienced that in the gtr or 458, when i ask for a gear i get it.

the simple reason for the zf8 is cost savings for bmw.

you won't catch an automatic replacing porsche pdk or the dct in lambos / mclarens/ ferraris.

[clueless69]

Originally Posted by snareman

What do you think of the position of the P button kind of down on the shifter handle? It seems like its in kind of an awkward place. I used it some on the M8's at track day and it certainly doesn't seem like its in a natural place to reach. Unless the car automatically goes into park when you turn it off, sort of like the DCTish.

when you stopped a vehicle and holding the breaks open a door and car goes in parking mode automatically

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by fastboatster

I think AT DCT performance gap is mostly a fiction, not to mention DCT is an automatic, too. Porsche pdk and bmw dct list their shift times as 200ms, same as well programmed zf 8hp.

What about downshifts though? That's what you need on the track or on a twisty road.

Obviously this is a poorly programmed 10-speed on not the ZF8, but still. This is my nightmare. You can hear the car upshifting in the blink of an eye...going back down though?

I don't see DCT's having this problem. (5:35 or so if the video doesn't start there)

[Maitre_Absolut]

If you feel that DCT is clunky then you are the problem. Either not smooth enough with right foot or not timing your shifts correctly.

I will never buy a sports car with a torque converter. I dont care how good they have programmed them and I dont want to not feel the shifts. They feel disconnected and ruin the driving experience. And I know, I have one in my SQ5.

Remember that Lambo uses single clutch in the Aventador because DCT is too smooth! Not enough of an emotional experience.

Basically if you are afraid of spilling your oat milk latte because of a bad shift, you should be driving a 340i.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

i've experienced dct, manual, and the zf8 auto

most of the complaints against dct here are people that want a daily driver and not a sports car. meaning they dont want to feel clutches slipping in 1st from a stop or a jerky downshift. This can easily be negated by driving the dct like a manual how it was intended. I drove my 458 and GTR like this, 99% of the time i was shifting. the only time i put it in auto was if i had a drink or on the phone.

i had a zf8 in my f30 335. it was awful when pushing the car hard. like flying into a corner with the abs flashing, i ask for a downshift and the car isn't sure what to do for a split second. or sometimes it doesn't register at all and i have to hit it again to get the shift. never experienced that in the gtr or 458, when i ask for a gear i get it.

the simple reason for the zf8 is cost savings for bmw.

you won't catch an automatic replacing porsche pdk or the dct in lambos / mclarens/ ferraris.

I had manuals for my previous 3 cars prior to getting the 135i. Both of my sport bikes are manuals. I was in the market for a 135i when production ended. I only wanted to buy new and wanted a black car. I was limited to what stock was on hand and at that point it was a carbon black 135i with a DCT.

In the beginning, I had no problems with how the DCT operated. But as mileage and time gets put on these trans (and if you're one of the "lucky" ones), you'll suffer the problems I have listed time and time again. I know full well what clutch slip feels like. The issue I'm having when the trans does act up is pushing the gas pedal and the car doesn't move for literally 2 seconds or so. And when it does start moving, the car creeps for another second or so then the power comes in. Having to deal with this situation is not only annoying, it's down right dangerous.

At the time I bought the 135i new, I had my Focus daily beater. It met its demise when I hit a deer with it. That forced me to use the 135i as a daily for a few years until last year when I got my C-HR. I had the adaptations reset a few months ago which has settled down the problems at low speed, but unstable idle is still there in varying degrees. I just don't have to deal with it as much now that it's a weekend car.

Again, search through the 1 series sub forum and you'll find dedicated threads on the DCT issues. There are even some members that tried the xHP flash in hopes of fixing their DCT issues which apparently is a dud for that.

[brad850csi]

Originally Posted by Moflow

Why? Because its cheaper for them and for 90 percent of car buyers it's the right choice.

And what about the other 10 percent? Well. Here's what they're going to give up:

1. High redlines. This has always been a weakness for torque converters. Witness the 197 hp Mazda RX-8, that thing got a 30 hp nerf with the auto thanks to making its power so high up in the rev range. Or take a look at the S55 vs the S58 (7200 RPM vs 7600 RPM, guess which one is hooked up to the ZF8 and which one is mated to DCTs)

2. Consistent downshifts. Torque converters are getting really good at upshifting with lightning quickness! But the downshifts....well. They tend to take quite a bit longer and often times there's a lot of reluctance to drop a gear. All of that's really only a problem if you like twisty roads or race tracks though. If you just want to get arrested for going 130 in a 40 mph zone, a torque converter auto will do you just fine.

3. Consistent operation. This can probably be solved by proper cooling, but torque converter automatics can overheat with too much shifting (especially high-rpm downshifts.) Again, not a problem if you're just going to drag race your car for 10 seconds. A bigger problem on a race track or a twisty road. But like I said, this can be solved with proper transmission cooling so as long as you trust car manufacturers to not cheap out (wait...why are talking about this again? oh yeah because manufacturers cheaped out and didn't want to use DCT's anymore) we should be fine.

I'd be pretty angry at this general trend if I were a DCT enthusiast. A bunch of casuals just descended on the performance cars we love in such great numbers, that they basically killed a big part of what makes them special with their calls for civility, usability and smoothness.

But of course, i'm not a DCT enthisiast. I'm a manual enthusiast, so instead I'm just gonna sit here like a smug little asshole and be like "Yeah? You don't like it when a bunch of filthy casuals ruin your cars by demanding that they be easier to drive and more livable??? WOW. THAT MUST SUCK, CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT THAT'S LIKE....."

(but also, just so we're clear, i'm mostly just joking around here. A car is way too expensive of a purchase to not buy it exactly as you want it, so i don't REALLY blame anyone for just getting what they like. Even if they like different stuff than me)



I'm here to get shit started, don't worry!

Its an M car so the 10% is 70% or so surely?

[fastboatster]

Originally Posted by Moflow

What about downshifts though? That's what you need on the track or on a twisty road.

Obviously this is a poorly programmed 10-speed on not the ZF8, but still. This is my nightmare. You can hear the car upshifting in the blink of an eye...going back down though?

I don't see DCT's having this problem. (5:35 or so if the video doesn't start there)

GM/Ford 10 spd is a finicky trans, not like a BMW tuned 8hp. I drove a loaner 428i with sport transmission option, it would revmatch and downshift in almost an instant. Pull the paddle and it drops a gear and you mostly feel it because the engine note changed. Keep pulling the paddle longer at it will drop to lowest possible gear. It was crazy how it dropped from 8th to 2nd without any jerkiness and with perfect rev match. Now, the software seems to make all the difference in the world for zf 8hp. It didn’t feel that great in another BMW loaner which was a non sport package 328i and felt pretty hohum and not too responsive in one of my coworker’s 2012 A4. But yes, that zf 8 I’m that 428i felt like it could read my mind and was very responsive to shift paddle input. Can’t say that about dl501 in my b8 s4, if it was thinking about shifting up but you wanted it to drop a gear it would get “confused” and there would be at least one second delay.
As for the people desiring to have firm shifts, this is entirely up to software and can be made as harsh as desired. As for the efficiency, zf 8 torque converter lockup clutch is locked up from the first gear, hydraulic power transmission is primarily used when starting from the standstill. Anyway, mt all the way, and when comes to the AT, zf 8 all the way and no DCT AT. I would say that I’m more open to BMW’s DCTs simply because they were not dropping like flys at 30-40 kmiles like many early VW/Audi dsgs did.

[RMachuca3d]

Originally Posted by Moflow

What about downshifts though? That's what you need on the track or on a twisty road.

Obviously this is a poorly programmed 10-speed on not the ZF8, but still. This is my nightmare. You can hear the car upshifting in the blink of an eye...going back down though?

I don't see DCT's having this problem. (5:35 or so if the video doesn't start there)

To be 100% fair here, the CT5V Matt was driving did not have an updated tranny flash that had a bug in it that caused slow downshifts.

[BBri89]

The ZF8 is such an incredible automatic gearbox (compared to previous generations).
The fact that it is used in everything from a BMW, Volkswagen and Land Rovers, to an Iveco Daily van, to the Lamborghini Urus, numerous Bentleys and Aston Martins...

The (car) manufacturer can choose how the software is on the gearbox, from silky smooth to fast and aggressive and almost impossible to tell apart from a DCT, it's a feat of technology.


They are not slush-boxes anymore, they are about the best gearbox you could possibly want, from one persons daily-driver M3/M4 through to a full-time track weapon

[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Hmmm, I guess there's a WIDE range when it comes to DCT 'smoothness'...again, why are we using this as the main criterion? Just from personal experience, my DCT is freaking smooth, couldn't tell the difference between that and an AT, so, I dunno how some ppl can blanket-state all DCTs are 'crap', that's just an outright lie.

Some people just don't know the difference well enough, and you seem to be one of those.

I shoot cars for a living, usually 20+ at a time, so I'm getting in and out of this and that car one right after the other, and I can tell you for certain that DCT's are always notchier. Some are downright bad, and others not so bad, but in general, the auto is much smoother in every way.

And BTW, my experience goes from $10K cars to million dollar cars.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

Some people just don't know the difference well enough, and you seem to be one of those.

I shoot cars for a living, usually 20+ at a time, so I'm getting in and out of this and that car one right after the other, and I can tell you for certain that DCT's are always notchier. Some are downright bad, and others not so bad, but in general, the auto is much smoother in every way.

And BTW, my experience goes from $10K cars to million dollar cars.

Right, you have no idea what you're talking about AND what I'm saying…a photographer=driver? If I put on makeup for movie stars, does that mean I am a great actor? LOL smh. Again, I'm not debating which tranny is smoother as that's not the pt and I'm also saying my DCT is smooth. If you wanna feel nothing, buy a couch. You obviously have not learned anything if you indeed 'tested' (shot lmao) "$10K cars to million dollar cars". What an ignorant and silly 'bragging' thing to say smh lmao.

There is a lot of cringe ITT w many ppl talking nonsense and you happen to be one of them yet ironically accuse me? Quit your job as a photographer and become a comedian instead cuz what you're saying is just one big friggin JOKE.

[six75LT]

Originally Posted by Maitre_Absolut

If you feel that DCT is clunky then you are the problem. Either not smooth enough with right foot or not timing your shifts correctly.

I will never buy a sports car with a torque converter. I dont care how good they have programmed them and I dont want to not feel the shifts. They feel disconnected and ruin the driving experience. And I know, I have one in my SQ5.

Remember that Lambo uses single clutch in the Aventador because DCT is too smooth! Not enough of an emotional experience.

Basically if you are afraid of spilling your oat milk latte because of a bad shift, you should be driving a 340i.

Originally Posted by fiveohwblow

I have a dct, smg, zf8 and manual cars. All right now. My programmed zf isn’t faster than the dct and the smg is by far the roughest. The automatic is well known to behave quite differently when heat comes into the equation.

Calling a dct an auto is a misnomer as well. There is no torque converter on the manual variants but those who clutch their levers like the finest of pearls will argue semantics until blue in the face.

The answer to this thread is obvious. Add weight. Add easier trans. Add flashy (albeit ugly) exterior it’s the demographic they are targeting. If you don’t think there were focus groups, studies and money spent on identifying trends you’re fooling yourself. If you think the auto is a more enthusiast option, you’ve ignored the concurrent trends.

seriously whats up with "men" these days who buy sports cars? always complaining about something. "jerky transmissions" or "rough rides". if thats too much for you to handle, dont daily your car or dont buy it in the first place. DCT experience is night and day compared to autos and some of us enjoy that, not just talking about performance either.

[fiveohwblow]

Originally Posted by six75LT

seriously whats up with "men" these days who buy sports cars? always complaining about something. "jerky transmissions" or "rough rides". if thats too much for you to handle, dont daily your car or dont buy it in the first place. DCT experience is night and day compared to autos and some of us enjoy that, not just talking about performance either.

Wish I knew but I think it’s the arrow pointing at why we have autos going into the most iconic factory track weapon in history... le sad.

[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Right, you have no idea what you're talking about AND what I'm saying…a photographer=driver? If I put on makeup for movie stars, does that mean I am a great actor? LOL smh. Again, I'm not debating which tranny is smoother as that's not the pt and I'm also saying my DCT is smooth. If you wanna feel nothing, buy a couch. You obviously have not learned anything if you indeed 'tested' (shot lmao) "$10K cars to million dollar cars". What an ignorant and silly 'bragging' thing to say smh lmao.

There is a lot of cringe ITT w many ppl talking nonsense and you happen to be one of them yet ironically accuse me? Quit your job as a photographer and become a comedian instead cuz what you're saying is just one big friggin JOKE.

You sound quite fearful, and childish in your response. I'll only humor you once more.

I never said I was the worlds best driver, or that I wanted a couch as a transmission. What I said was that since I get into quite a few cars of various price-points one right after the other I'm able to compare them to each other better than someone who simply drives a car and gets used to it. And I stand by that claim.

All the DCT's I've driven are just different versions of bad...for the street. Now if we're talking about race cars on race tracks that's a different story, but we're not.

I drive a 6MT, and wouldn't own an auto or DCT, so I don't have a dog in this pony show, I'm just telling you my EXPERIENCE, not my opinion.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

You sound quite fearful, and childish in your response. I'll only humor you once more.

I never said I was the worlds best driver, or that I wanted a couch as a transmission. What I said was that since I get into quite a few cars of various price-points one right after the other I'm able to compare them to each other better than someone who simply drives a car and gets used to it. And I stand by that claim.

All the DCT's I've driven are just different versions of bad...for the street. Now if we're talking about race cars on race tracks that's a different story, but we're not.

I drive a 6MT, and wouldn't own an auto or DCT, so I don't have a dog in this pony show, I'm just telling you my EXPERIENCE, not my opinion.

Ya, I figured you're another one of those self-righteous MT meatheads. You still have no idea what you're talking about and I never said anything is as smooth as an AT…that is the whole pt of the tq converter, to be SMOOTH. However, to say *all* DCTs are not smooth is dead wrong and I'm telling you from MY experience.

It's one thing to be ignorant but another to be ignorant AND rude. Not sure where you get off telling me I'm wrong when you don't even know what the heck you're talking about and are just debating things no one is even arguing about!

Re bolds, BTW, you're all over the place and didn't make sense yet again.

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

Enthusiasts get used to DCT's because they want that performance feel, but in all reality, they're crap compared to AT's in real-world driving. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can say you like yours, but say that after you've driven the exact same car with AT.

I'm sure cost and emissions comes into it, but really, unless you're really just trying to eek out every bit of sport feel and performance, AT FTW.

"Fearful"? "Childish?". I'll forgive you if English is your 2nd language. More like gobsmacked and indignant at your nonsensical accusations outta nowhere.

[OG///M]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Ya, I figured you're another one of those self-righteous MT meatheads. You still have no idea what you're talking about and I never said anything is as smooth as an AT…that is the whole pt of the tq converter, to be SMOOTH. However, to say *all* DCTs are not smooth is dead wrong and I'm telling you from MY experience.

It's one thing to be ignorant but another to be ignorant AND rude. Not sure where you get off telling me I'm wrong when you don't even know what the heck you're talking about and are just debating things no one is even arguing about!

Re bolds, BTW, you're all over the place and didn't make sense yet again.


"Fearful"? "Childish?". I'll forgive you if English is your 2nd language. More like gobsmacked and indignant at your nonsensical accusations outta nowhere.

Chill man. From the sidelines, maybe you're interpreting his remarks a little too much. His point is that comparing to a torque converter AT, DCT will always be notchier (which is theoretically correct), and he used his experience as reference.

You on the other hand claiming your experience with DCT is smooth as butta is valid as well, since we all have different perception when it comes to smoothness.

It's too early to get all worked up

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by poweredbym

Chill man. From the sidelines, maybe you're interpreting his remarks a little too much. His point is that comparing to a torque converter AT, DCT will always be notchier (which is theoretically correct), and he used his experience as reference.

You on the other hand claiming your experience with DCT is smooth as butta is valid as well, since we all have different perception when it comes to smoothness.

It's too early to get all worked up

Like I said earlier, maybe English is not his first language but to come in here and tell me I'm wrong when I'm just making a basic observation from personal experience is asinine and annoying...and I couldn't care less if he 'shoots 20+ cars all at the same time from $10K clunkers to $1M cars!!!' Whoopie-doo w his out-in-left-field irrelevant comment.