Build Quality and Reliability of the various German brands

[blschaefer1]

There have been numerous comments lately in other threads regarding build quality and reliability of Porsche relative to BMW and the other German brands. I thought it might be interesting to start a new thread on this topic.

Over the course of the last 15 years, I've owned five BMW's, two Porsche's, and now two Audi's. All have been well built and trouble free, though my 2014 Cayman S did spend quite a bit more time in the shop than all other cars combined. I may have had a bad example, but that is my experience. My current Audi's have been flawless and have excellent interiors, materials, fit and finish. In terms of general build quality, I might place Porsche and Audi slightly higher than BMW, but the difference is trivial and certainly not enough for me to choose one over the other. I have no first hand experience with M-B.

There is conflicting information in the media on this topic also. JD Power has Porsche ranked #2 (behind Kia!) in their most recent initial quality survey. Consumer Reports on the other hand has Porsche ranked 13th in their Predicted Reliability score, behind Audi (#4) and BMW (#5) and one spot ahead of M-B. There is a UK-based company similar to CR that tracks this too, and places Porsche near the bottom, BMW, Audi and M-B in the middle and the Asian stuff on top; one of their metrics being repair time and cost.

My personal opinion is that Porsche owners tend to fall more into the 'enthusiast' category and fall victim to Porsche's marketing prowess and convince themselves their products are vasty superior to others in an effort to justify the price premium in their heads. I put myself in this category when I owned Porsche's. I think this artificially influences JD Power ratings. There are proportionally fewer 'enthusiasts' of the other German brands and therefore they are more objective about the ownership experience.

Thoughts on this topic?

PS, I currently do not have any BMW's in the garage but still enjoy spending time here, and consider my former F82 M4 as one of all time favorite cars, right up there with the 991.1 C2S. We currently have both an Audi S3 for the wife (fun little all rounder) and an S6 as a daily for me. Decided to go a bit more towards the lux end of the spectrum with the S6 this time around. Amazing V8 but there are days I really miss the F82.

[nicknaz]

so wait, your telling me that the f80 I ordered with cloth seats and few options for $60k has some cheaper interior parts than a $95k e63, and a $130k 911 with full leather including on the air vents has an even better interior?

Wow, I never realized I could spend more money to get a nicer interior

[blschaefer1]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

so wait, your telling me that the f80 I ordered with cloth seats and few options for $60k has some cheaper interior parts than a $95k e63, and a $130k 911 with full leather including on the air vents has an even better interior?

Wow, I never realized I could spend more money to get a nicer interior

Yes, what a concept!

BTW - my F82 had the cloth seats - they are VERY nice and I preferred them to the leather.

[///M4ster Yoda]

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by blschaefer1

Yes, what a concept!

BTW - my F82 had the cloth seats - they are VERY nice and I preferred them to the leather.

I obviously agree, else I wouldn't have ordered like that.

But some will automatically say that's inferior in an m3/m4 on the basis of it being cloth.

Really, what Bmw should have done was make those seats have a CF seat back and cutouts for non existent harnesses, and non reclinable and charged $17k for a pair in the parts catalog or $5k as an option for the car, and called them "lightweight bucket" seats and they would automatically be the best seats ever

///Marketing

[KevinM]

Well, to state the obvious, these are two very different questions which have different levels of importance for people depending on how long they plan to own the car and the primary purpose of the car (DD, long distance, track use, etc.). Additionally, "build quality" (fit, finish, interior quality) is vastly different among the car range (e.g., 3 series vs. 7 series).

From a build quality standpoint, the VW group seems to have it down. Audis are always praised for their interiors and Porsches for their lack of rattles and squeaks. BMW seems more variable, as above depending on the series and purpose of the car.

From a reliability standpoint (obviously important if keeping the car past warranty), I trust Consumer Reports the most. I think almost any new car can get past the 4 year warranty period without major issues; more important is what happens after that.

For me, my 2002 M5 seems the best of both worlds, even after almost 15 years of ownership. I will probably never again own a car more luxurious (the car has leather or alcantera literarily everywhere) or solid-feeling. The F80 had more squeaks and rattles than my Z4M coupe, which is impressive, although they were mostly eventually fixed.

[blschaefer1]

Originally Posted by KevinM

Well, to state the obvious, these are two very different questions which have different levels of importance for people depending on how long they plan to own the car and the primary purpose of the car (DD, long distance, track use, etc.). Additionally, "build quality" (fit, finish, interior quality) is vastly different among the car range (e.g., 3 series vs. 7 series).

From a build quality standpoint, the VW group seems to have it down. Audis are always praised for their interiors and Porsches for their lack of rattles and squeaks. BMW seems more variable, as above depending on the series and purpose of the car.

From a reliability standpoint (obviously important if keeping the car past warranty), I trust Consumer Reports the most. I think almost any new car can get past the 4 year warranty period without major issues; more important is what happens after that.

For me, my 2002 M5 seems the best of both worlds, even after almost 15 years of ownership. I will probably never again own a car more luxurious (the car has leather or alcantera literarily everywhere) or solid-feeling. The F80 had more squeaks and rattles than my Z4M coupe, which is impressive, although they were mostly eventually fixed.

I had an ‘07 Z4M Coupe at one point. The thing was vault like. Great car.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by blschaefer1

I had an ‘07 Z4M Coupe at one point. The thing was vault like. Great car.

A great car indeed, but are you sure you just couldn't hear any squeaks or rattles over the engine and road noise?

I find them much more bothersome in a quieter car.

What was wrong with your Cayman? I have a strong suspicion that Porsche goes out of their way to hide major failures and make the customer happy so they don't show up on surveys (based on a friend's experience).

[Run Silent]

So I spent 18 years in the automotive sector, including sitting on the board of TrueCar before switching over to my current career in financial reporting.

One of the biggest issues we always had with the JD Power IQS, is that it relies on consumer input, which is a huge variable based on brand. The IQS (Initial Quality Survey) basically ranks how many problems a consumer reported to the manufacturer over a set period of time (usually 12mos).

The problem with this, and this is why KIA and other similar brands rank number one so frequently, is that people who are buying their first new car or who are buying what are known to be economy car brands, typically let things get pretty dire before reporting an issue. Those buying a high end luxury car such as BMW, MB, etc tend to be quite a bit more nit picky. Hence, those brands get a larger number of complaints and get ranked more poorly.

When we investigated the actual complaints, the bulk of the ones on BMW and Audi were things like 'trim rattles on occasion' or 'floor mats arn't as dark a black as I expected' and the complaints on Hyundai and Ford were things like 'door handle fell off' and 'driver side window fell down into door by itself'.

Until these companies begin ranking the types of problems as well as the numerical quantity, I will say they hold no water.

[blschaefer1]

Originally Posted by chris719

A great car indeed, but are you sure you just couldn't hear any squeaks or rattles over the engine and road noise?

I find them much more bothersome in a quieter car.

What was wrong with your Cayman? I have a strong suspicion that Porsche goes out of their way to hide major failures and make the customer happy so they don't show up on surveys (based on a friend's experience).

My Cayman had significant issues with the rear hatch not sealing properly, rattling, resonating, etc. It was a real mess - shop had it for a total of three weeks trying to sort it out. At certain engine RPM's the trim pieces around the hatch would vibrate/resonate - worse than a rattle. The service guys replaced all the trim, seal, adjusted the latch, and it got better but never fixed. I chalk it up to a design flaw. Small cabin with the engine right under the hatch created some kind of harmonic disturbance. I had the first year of the 981 (2014) and I believe they changed the design of the trim pieces in 2015.

[10"]

i have close to 90k miles on my 1M and it feels tight as a zipper. no rattles or creaks or mechanical issues. easily the most well-built car i've ever owned......just done aggressive maintenance and have had only minor issues.

i owned a few Audis in the past and they're great for the first 3-4 years and then everything collapses like a building tear down......just terrible. You can feel that Audis are built on a budget and coated in layers of "false luxury" to make an impression. If anyone owns one long enough you'll see how badly they fall apart.

have never owned a Porsche and am not really interested in them unless it's a GT3 or GT4. I know a few people who own GT3s and they say their cars are FULL of creaks, rattles, and broken interior bits (997 and 991). Mechanically i can't really find enough evidence since people buy these cars and barely drive them....gotta put miles on them to appreciate build quality.