Football Pylon Placement

[Blindside_137]

I thought of this the other day when I realized the pylon is placed in the white portion of the field (out of bounds)

So why is it that touchdowns are considered good when all you have to do is hit the pylon? Technically, with this placement, only the inside edge represents the "plane" of the goal line and sideline. If you hit the front edge or outer corner or the pylon, those are out of bounds and shouldn't be a touchdown.

Maybe I am misinterpreting the rule, and if those parts of the pylon (front or outside edge) are in fact where contact is made then the touchdown is no good. But I am curious, as generally the accepted rule seems to be any contact with the pylon = touchdown

[csu87]

You dont have to just hit the pylon, you have to hit the inside edge of the pylon.

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by csu87

You dont have to just hit the pylon, you have to hit the inside edge of the pylon.

Thanks, don't believe I have ever seen it explained anywhere. At least not that clearly. But that's what my thought was.

[CANGRKE70]

Originally Posted by Blindside_137

I thought of this the other day when I realized the pylon is placed in the white portion of the field (out of bounds)

So why is it that touchdowns are considered good when all you have to do is hit the pylon? Technically, with this placement, only the inside edge represents the "plane" of the goal line and sideline. If you hit the front edge or outer corner or the pylon, those are out of bounds and shouldn't be a touchdown.

Maybe I am misinterpreting the rule, and if those parts of the pylon (front or outside edge) are in fact where contact is made then the touchdown is no good. But I am curious, as generally the accepted rule seems to be any contact with the pylon = touchdown

Is this really what is the bane of your existence that you needed to make a thread about it? I bet you're real fun at parties.

I'm kidding of course, but have never really thought about it other than today.

[Axius]

I used to thoroughly enjoy kicking those during my flag football days back in '94.




Those were the days...

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by CANGRKE70

Is this really what is the bane of your existence that you needed to make a thread about it? I bet you're real fun at parties.

I'm kidding of course, but have never really thought about it other than today.

Lol of course not. Just wanted to discuss with people. This weekend there were a couple of games where this came up (I think Oklahoma vs Baylor) and I felt like the touchdown shouldn't have counted but I couldn't tell where it hit the pylon and it wasn't reviewed.

I think it's my physics background and understandings of 3D planes and the similarities to scoring a touchdown. So this idea was thought provoking. But the first response makes sense and is what I imagined the rule is.

[schoy]

Originally Posted by csu87

You dont have to just hit the pylon, you have to hit the inside edge of the pylon.

I believe that is wrong. The plane of the goal line is technically extended into infinity, unless the runner is airborne, in which case the goal line plane is extended as far as (and includes the entirety of) the pylon.

NFL Rule 11, Section 2:

TOUCHDOWN PLAYS
Article 1 Touchdown Plays. A touchdown is scored when:
(a) the ball is on, above, or behind the plane of the opponents’ goal line and is in possession of a runner who has advanced from the field of play; or
(b) a ball in possession of an airborne runner is on, above, or behind the plane of the goal line, and some part of the ball passed over or inside the pylon; or
(c) a ball in player possession touches the pylon, provided that, after contact by an opponent, no part of the player’s body, except his hands or feet, struck the ground before the ball touched the pylon; or
(d) any player who is legally inbounds catches or recovers a loose ball (3-2-3) that is on, above, or behind the opponent’s goal line; or
(e) the Referee awards a touchdown to a team that has been denied one by a palpably unfair act.

...
Supplemental Note example:

A.R. 11.2 Second-and-10 on B18. Runner A1 takes handoff and runs down the sideline toward the goal line with the ball in his outside arm. He crosses the goal line plane standing with the ball to the outside of the pylon.
Ruling: Touchdown. Part of the ball crossing over or inside the pylon only applies to an airborne runner who lands out of bounds.

Edit: What if a runner (who is NOT airborne) steps out of bounds (OOB), but PAST the goal line? Rule 1, Section 21 gives the answer. Basically, if a runner steps OOB, the ball is spotted where the ball (not the runner) crossed the OOB line. If that spot is on or past the goal line plane (which extends into infinity), then it's a TD. Ergo, in order for that to happen, the runner needs to have had the ball cross the inside of the pylon when stepping OOB (because the pylon is located outside the OOB line, as the OP noted).

[csu87]

Originally Posted by schoy

I believe that is wrong. The plane of the goal line is technically extended into infinity, unless the runner is airborne, in which case the goal line plane is extended as far as (and includes the entirety of) the pylon.

NFL Rule 11, Section 2:

TOUCHDOWN PLAYS
Article 1 Touchdown Plays. A touchdown is scored when:
(a) the ball is on, above, or behind the plane of the opponents’ goal line and is in possession of a runner who has advanced from the field of play; or
(b) a ball in possession of an airborne runner is on, above, or behind the plane of the goal line, and some part of the ball passed over or inside the pylon; or
(c) a ball in player possession touches the pylon, provided that, after contact by an opponent, no part of the player’s body, except his hands or feet, struck the ground before the ball touched the pylon; or
(d) any player who is legally inbounds catches or recovers a loose ball (3-2-3) that is on, above, or behind the opponent’s goal line; or
(e) the Referee awards a touchdown to a team that has been denied one by a palpably unfair act.

...
Supplemental Note example:

A.R. 11.2 Second-and-10 on B18. Runner A1 takes handoff and runs down the sideline toward the goal line with the ball in his outside arm. He crosses the goal line plane standing with the ball to the outside of the pylon.
Ruling: Touchdown. Part of the ball crossing over or inside the pylon only applies to an airborne runner who lands out of bounds.

Edit: What if a runner (who is NOT airborne) steps out of bounds (OOB), but PAST the goal line? Rule 1, Section 21 gives the answer. Basically, if a runner steps OOB, the ball is spotted where the ball (not the runner) crossed the OOB line. If that spot is on or pass the goal line plane (which extends into infinity), then it's a TD. Ergo, in order for that to happen, the runner needs to have had the ball cross the inside of the pylon when stepping OOB (because the pylon is located outside the OOB line, as the OP noted).

Inside of the pylon.

[schoy]

Originally Posted by csu87

Inside of the pylon.

No, you're misrepresenting/oversimplifying the rule. See the supplemental example. A TD results when runner runs between the pylons with the ball OUTSIDE the pylon. Also, a TD results when a runner goes airborne (e.g. dives) and the point of the ball passes OVER (or into) the pylon and not necessarily the inside of the pylon.

[csu87]

Originally Posted by schoy

No, you're misrepresenting/oversimplifying the rule. See the supplemental example. A TD results when runner runs between the pylons with the ball OUTSIDE the pylon. Also, a TD results when a runner goes airborne (e.g. dives) and the point of the ball passes OVER (or into) the pylon and not necessarily the inside of the pylon.

diving for the TD you cant be outside the pylon. Your body does not have to be inbounds, but the ball has to. you dont have to make it complicated, because it isnt.

Yes a player running, whos body crosses the goalline, does not have to have the ball inside the goalline provided it crosses the plane of the endzone. here, the body has to be in bounds, but the ball does not, provided the player is not airborne.

Edit: you can apply this to anywhere on the field. For example, a player dives for a 1st down. His body is flying out of bounds, but does not touch out of bounds, and he reaches forward with the ball. Where the ball crosses, not his body, out of bounds is where it is spotted.

[schoy]

Originally Posted by csu87

diving for the TD you cant be outside the pylon. Your body does not have to be inbounds, but the ball has to. you dont have to make it complicated, because it isnt.

Agreed. But you can dive INTO or OVER the pylon, with the ball never being on the "inside of the pylon".

I'm not making this complicated. I'm just re-stating what the rule says.

EDIT: I just re-read your statement. You CAN dive outside the pylon as long as the ball is INSIDE, INTO or OVER the pylon. So I guess, technically, your statement is false.

[Mr Tonka]

1 on 1 football game to settle it.

Axius will be all time QB because he goes both ways.

[csu87]

Originally Posted by schoy

Agreed. But you can dive INTO or OVER the pylon, with the ball never being on the "inside of the pylon".

I'm not making this complicated. I'm just re-stating what the rule says.

EDIT: I just re-read your statement. You CAN dive outside the pylon as long as the ball is INSIDE, INTO or OVER the pylon. So I guess, technically, your statement is false.

Here you go. Pylon placement is supposed to be inside the field of play, and the above pylon pictured is inaccurate. Being that the pylon shown is Out of Bounds, any contact not to the inside would be considered out of bounds.

The four intersections of goal lines and sidelines must be marked, at inside corners, by weighted pylons.

ARTICLE 3. BALL OUT OF BOUNDS
Item 1: Ball in Player Possession. A ball that is in player possession is out of bounds when the runner is out of bounds, or when the ball touches a boundary line or anything that is on or outside such line, except another player or an official.

that is why when a player does not hit the inside of the pylon as placed in the original picture, it is called out of bounds and not a TD.

[Axius]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

1 on 1 football game to settle it.

Axius will be all time QB because he goes both ways.

Peyton Manning's new record would look Highschool if I had one season in his spot, yeah, just one season. Probably beat it half way through, my right arm is that good.

[csu87]

Originally Posted by Axius

Peyton Manning's new record would look Highschool if I had one season in his spot, yeah, just one season. Probably beat it half way through, my right arm is that good.

Cant be any worse than he is now

[Blindside_137]

I guess now I am confused, any pylon image I search on the internet, and see on tv has it located out of bounds.

The outer edge of the end zone lines up with the inner edge of the pylons.

[Blindside_137]

In this replay, the pylon is out of bounds, and he "hits the pylon" granting the touchdown. But technically, with that placement I feel like just "hitting the pylon" isn't getting the ball in the "end zone"

Not sure how to embed from this site but a good example here:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...n-TD-reception

[schoy]

I'll just leave this right here, rather than get into a protracted argument over TD/OOB minutiae and semantics:

NFL Rules, Field Markings, paragraph 5:
"[P]ylons must be placed at inside edges of white lines and should NOT touch the surface of the actual playing field itself." (Emphasis added)

The pylons in the above pictures seem to me to be in their correct placements based on the rule.

[csu87]

You guys see the baylor tcu game where he ran inside the pylon but the ball was outside? College rules put a whole other twist on this

[kscarrol]

Saw that. The players leg was inside the pylon but the ball never crossed the line. I think it was the correct call and ultimately it had no impact on the game as TCU scored on the next play...

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by csu87

You dont have to just hit the pylon, you have to hit the inside edge of the pylon.

I thought you can touch any part of the pylon