I have lease regrets

[David70]

Originally Posted by premier3is

Amazing you say? Lol...

Car probably has been beat down to the max lol. Plus most ppl don't even take care of their leases like you'd expect, shit I know people when I leased a lexus who would just say fuck it put 87 gas not 91 as recommended. Imagine the other shit they done.

Fuck buying a lease return. Call me an asshole but if you gotta look for a CPO or used "deal" for a BMW, you probably should get yourself a Civic or something instead. No need to show off you drive a "BMW" when you purchased it for like 20k or lower lol.

I am in the group that shouldn't show off a used BMW and you are part of the group that is fully deserving to show off their leased BMW. Classic BMW owner.

You missed a part of the population you obviously aren't part of, the group that decides they want a used BMW (not the "gotta look for a CPO"), and isn't trying to impress people with it.

[Cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by CTinline-six

I don't really believe the rolled back odometer story.

Not sure what's not to believe, they keep track of your odometer through a bunch of computers. Some cars are smart enough to use the telematics to report that back to the dealer/manufacturer, but they have plenty of workarounds for different makes and models. Visit Brighton Beach, there are a bunch of nice Russian guys who will sell you a new telematics cluster for your MB to over-ride all of that functionality.

BMW's track that info using multiple disparate systems to try to over-ride that, but if you know how all those system's work any digital value stored on a chip can be tampered with.

And yes, this is a "New York" story. Lol.

Heres a youtube video of a guy giving step by step instructions for reprogramming the EEPROM on an older Lexus. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo

[jmg]

Originally Posted by David70

I agree, leasing removes many of the risks but then adds additional ones. If you are talking leasing vs. financing a new car -- Depreciation immunity - kind of, both parties agree to an expected value at the end, if the purchased car isn't happy with the value at the end of the lease they can also decide to hold onto the car. Recalls and dependability? - both in the same boat for first 3 years, if the car is constantly in the shop you will both deal with it. Out of warranty repairs, I'll take the possibility of a future expensive repair over the guaranteed depreciation hit that comes with the next lease.

Car explodes or is stolen? - not seeing this as a major difference, both have insurance. Maybe if stolen or blows up right after you get it and you didn't have gap insurance you would be out. I would never buy gap insurance unless required. A tiny chance I could lose $5k?, and this number drops each month I have the car..

The person on the forever lease removes the risks buy paying a premium to not deal with them. Added risks include this original post. If he had purchased, all options available would be available without reading paperwork or calling anyone. If he decided he wanted to get rid of the car now or keep it longer, he can do it. If he is allowed 12k miles but decides to drive 15k, or 7k it is up to him. Do you get money back on the lease when you go well under mileage limit (my driving went from 15k a year to 4k about 2 years ago)? When lease is soon to run out he has to make a decision on what happens next. Turn in a BMW lease and take out a Toyota lease, probably need to get the Toyota lease early. Returning the lease and having charges? Nothing I have ever had to worry about. When I decide I want a new car I go get one, what I have done to keep it in above or below average condition is all on me.

Regarding recalls and dependability, a leaser and a purchaser both have to deal with them, yes, but the perceived cost of ownership affects the depreciation. That car will sell for less on the secondary market whereas the leases car's depreciation was set by the lease terms.

It all depends on your mentality, a big future repair bill to me doesn't sound as attractive as a brand new lease on a new car that will still be under warranty. Yes, there is a premium, leaders are paying for the luxury of not having to deal with a 3 year old car.

Gap insurance is dirt cheap, why wouldn't you get it? Insurance covers the value of the car, not what you owe. Gap covers what you owe that wasn't covered by insurance. It's a no-brainer.

Purchasing and leasing both have tons of paperwork unless you pay cash. If you finance, both have liens on them. Where leasing has an advantage: someone can take over your lease with a credit check. When financing, the lien has to be paint off in full.

Yes, mileage can be tricky. Leasers have to plan. Additional miles can be bought at a discount, but only a small refund can be given for going under miles. However, leases have control of ownership. If they are under or over miles, they can keep or sell the car, whichever makes more financial sense.

IMHO the most financially responsible thing to do is buy used. Buying new and leasing both are more expensive and require the consumer to take the big depreciation hit. I can't say leasing is better than buying new in all cases, what I am saying is that leasing is a viable strategy that works for a lot of people and blanket statements that leasing is horrible is not really accurate for everyone.

[Cyberdemon]

Gap insurance is also included on the majority of standard lease contracts, and in some states is mandatory. BMW, Audi, Volvo, Mercedes, all the luxury brands that I can think of typically include GAP. Usually it's discount lenders or third parties who might not provide it. So it's not an extra you need to typically pay for.

I also keep in mind that the vast majority of people have zero comprehension of how a lease structure works. These are the same people that put $5,000 down to get their $499 payment on a car, then total the car and wonder where their money went or are asking for a $10K down payment on a lease swap.

[David70]

Originally Posted by jmg

Regarding recalls and dependability, a leaser and a purchaser both have to deal with them, yes, but the perceived cost of ownership affects the depreciation. That car will sell for less on the secondary market whereas the leases car's depreciation was set by the lease terms.

So just possible depreciation differences which you already said.

Originally Posted by jmg

Gap insurance is dirt cheap, why wouldn't you get it? Insurance covers the value of the car, not what you owe. Gap covers what you owe that wasn't covered by insurance. It's a no-brainer.

It's dirt cheap because the chances of it paying off are minuscule. Insurance company knows this, covers all of their costs and still has a profit. Self insure with extremely high chances of coming out ahead.

Originally Posted by jmg

Purchasing and leasing both have tons of paperwork unless you pay cash. If you finance, both have liens on them. Where leasing has an advantage: someone can take over your lease with a credit check. When financing, the lien has to be paint off in full.

If you recently leased or recently purchased with little down, both cars will be impossible to get rid of without you kicking money in. Try leasing a car and then a month or two later trying to get someone to assume your lease. Not sure when during a lease someone would want to start leasing your used car.

Originally Posted by jmg

Yes, mileage can be tricky. Leasers have to plan. Additional miles can be bought at a discount, but only a small refund can be given for going under miles. However, leases have control of ownership. If they are under or over miles, they can keep or sell the car, whichever makes more financial sense.

IMHO the most financially responsible thing to do is buy used. Buying new and leasing both are more expensive and require the consumer to take the big depreciation hit. I can't say leasing is better than buying new in all cases, what I am saying is that leasing is a viable strategy that works for a lot of people and blanket statements that leasing is horrible is not really accurate for everyone.

More of the "you should plan better".

I never said leasing was horrible, if you want a new car every 3 years and are ok with the negatives than have at it. The idea that there are no negatives to leases or that they are an inexpensive way to have a car are wrong.

I prefer to buy slightly used with cash, don't have to plan for the future (I can easily sell it at any time), zero paperwork, I drive how much I want, fine with the highly unlikely high repair, gap insurance isn't relevant, if I decide to sell I am not calling the leasing company, getting credit checks or anything else, car is worth what it is worth. There isn't a date on the calendar when I have to start dealing with getting rid of one car to get another, could be tomorrow, could be years from now, if I am busy it can wait.

[David70]

With the odometer rollback, not sure how you would look at the options and think this is a good gamble. Then assuming you have had no warranty work or repair shop work where they record it.

Civil and Criminal Penalties for Odometer Fraud

The penalties for a conviction on federal odometer fraud charges can be expensive and severe. Civil penalties can include fines of up to $10,000 for each violation, with each altered odometer constituting a separate violation. You can also be sued by any individual who was defrauded by the altered odometer or documents, with potential damages being three times the amount of the actual damages or $10,000, whichever is greater. .

Additionally, if you knowingly and willfully engaged in odometer fraud, you can be sentenced to up to three years in federal prison.

You consider the options and decide you are willing to risk jail time, lawsuits and fines to save on mileage overages on your car?

[jmg]

Originally Posted by David70

It's dirt cheap because the chances of it paying off are minuscule. Insurance company knows this, covers all of their costs and still has a profit. Self insure with extremely high chances of coming out ahead.

All car insurance works this way, gap or not. BTW Gap is automatically included in all BMW leases unless you opt out, in which case you are required to get it through your own provider. BMW's rates are in most cases cheaper. You are paying for peice of mind here.

Originally Posted by David70

If you recently leased or recently purchased with little down, both cars will be impossible to get rid of without you kicking money in. Try leasing a car and then a month or two later trying to get someone to assume your lease. Not sure when during a lease someone would want to start leasing your used car.

A good lease deal is zero down with a good discount and buy rate money factor. If you mistakenly put money down, you can ask for a cash payment in a lease transfer. People who know how a lease works know how the down payment works, so they don't mind if there is a cash payment to get the monthly lower. Personally, I think there is too much risk in a down payment and its not work the few dollars in interest saved.

Also, a month or 29 months, it doesn't matter. The lease payment is the same, depreciation is set. Some people want to take over a lease on the short term, others just want the car because the original leaser knows how to shop and negotiate a lease.

Originally Posted by David70

I prefer to buy slightly used with cash, don't have to plan for the future (I can easily sell it at any time), zero paperwork, I drive how much I want, fine with the highly unlikely high repair, gap insurance isn't relevant, if I decide to sell I am not calling the leasing company, getting credit checks or anything else, car is worth what it is worth. There isn't a date on the calendar when I have to start dealing with getting rid of one car to get another, could be tomorrow, could be years from now, if I am busy it can wait.

I actually enjoy when the lease is about to be up–I enjoy looking at the market and seeing what deals are out there on new cars. Who's offering conquest? Who's got huge discounts on a $100k car with 60% rv?! What car can I get into with little commitment? I want to experience as many cars as I can before I die.

BTW you can extend your lease by a few months if you aren't ready to hop into another one. I extended my i3 lease when my new car was still on the boat from Germany. No problem! You can't really do that when you sell a car, the buyer will walk away and find another one. Either way, if you have multiple cars, it shouldn't be that big of a deal, I just didn't want to take my weekend M3 to work.

[David70]

Originally Posted by jmg

All car insurance works this way, gap or not. BTW Gap is automatically included in all BMW leases unless you opt out, in which case you are required to get it through your own provider. BMW's rates are in most cases cheaper. You are paying for peice of mind here.

Worst case with no car insurance I could be responsible for paying out hundreds of thousands of dollars. Worst case without gap it's $5k? I don't buy extended warranties on consumer goods or cars for the same reason. Health, home and car insurance, all things that could end up with massive losses, rest I can pay for. Long term everyone is highly unlikely to come out ahead with any insurance they buy.

Originally Posted by jmg

A good lease deal is zero down with a good discount and buy rate money factor. If you mistakenly put money down, you can ask for a cash payment in a lease transfer. People who know how a lease works know how the down payment works, so they don't mind if there is a cash payment to get the monthly lower. Personally, I think there is too much risk in a down payment and its not work the few dollars in interest saved.

Also, a month or 29 months, it doesn't matter. The lease payment is the same, depreciation is set. Some people want to take over a lease on the short term, others just want the car because the original leaser knows how to shop and negotiate a lease.

So many talk about the mistake in money down on a lease but it like the rest of the money depends on the overall deal. You must realize that 2 months into your 36 month lease that everyone would prefer to get a new car over your 2 month old car with a 34 month term unless you paid some costs they will now avoid?

Originally Posted by jmg

I actually enjoy when the lease is about to be up–I enjoy looking at the market and seeing what deals are out there on new cars. Who's offering conquest? Who's got huge discounts on a $100k car with 60% rv?! What car can I get into with little commitment? I want to experience as many cars as I can before I die.

BTW you can extend your lease by a few months if you aren't ready to hop into another one. I extended my i3 lease when my new car was still on the boat from Germany. No problem! You can't really do that when you sell a car, the buyer will walk away and find another one. Either way, if you have multiple cars, it shouldn't be that big of a deal, I just didn't want to take my weekend M3 to work.

I have two cars, looking to buy a 3rd soon, prefer to have a decent daily (the consumable with low depreciation), with interesting weekend car that actually has appreciated. I look at my 7 year old ATS that I have had for 6 years that is close to new condition (61k miles) and can't see a reason to trade it and write a check for $35k for a car very similar. If I had leased I would be on my 3rd car from when I started.

I think they love it when someone extends the lease. If you had negotiated a longer term up front the monthly payment would have been less and at that point they are leasing you a 3 year old car for a similar payment to a new one.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Canada, I live in Canada. And I talk all in, all fees, charges and taxes. The numbers are what they are, I have zero interest in making shit up, trust me, i'd prefer to lease as it's WAY easier for me and I don't have to deal with the wife but a 2 or 3 year old CPO is far, far cheaper to own.

EDIT: I just went to BMW Canada and priced out the 3T engined X3 with just the 2nd lowest convenience package and monthly lease payment is over $1K. Go try it.

And like all cars, prices vary greatly with options, both the X3 and Stelvio are heavily optioned.

A well specced SUV here is going to run you 10K a year in today's money for the rest of your life, that's a quarter million dollars in 25 years. It makes no sense.

That changes everything, I have no idea how leasing works in Canada! Fo that matter even state to state has different leasing strategies.

[Cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by David70

With the odometer rollback, not sure how you would look at the options and think this is a good gamble. Then assuming you have had no warranty work or repair shop work where they record it.

Civil and Criminal Penalties for Odometer Fraud

The penalties for a conviction on federal odometer fraud charges can be expensive and severe. Civil penalties can include fines of up to $10,000 for each violation, with each altered odometer constituting a separate violation. You can also be sued by any individual who was defrauded by the altered odometer or documents, with potential damages being three times the amount of the actual damages or $10,000, whichever is greater. .

Additionally, if you knowingly and willfully engaged in odometer fraud, you can be sentenced to up to three years in federal prison.

You consider the options and decide you are willing to risk jail time, lawsuits and fines to save on mileage overages on your car?

I can't justify other people's decisions, but he had a shop do it, didn't get caught, referred lots of people to the same shop of Russians and in this case the value of his mileage overage at $.25 was $17,000+. So yes in this case he got a good deal and he didn't take the car to the dealer for changing the brakes after 50,000 miles. Some people like to do things that are criminal, not saying I condone it just saying I know this behavior exists and buyer beware.

BTW if you follow Hoonigans on Instagram you would know that Vinny (who is on the E9X forums) bought an old 911 that had the odometer rolled back from 400k to ~100k, and he bought that car as a car guy who would have a general sense of what stuff to look for. Public example of people doing this (in the last few weeks)

I know Amazon has sellers that sell counterfeit products and have gotten them from time to time, doesn't mean the whole system is broken but means you exercise a bit more scrutiny from time to time and decide when some things might be worth the risk or not.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by David70

Worst case with no car insurance I could be responsible for paying out hundreds of thousands of dollars. Worst case without gap it's $5k? I don't buy extended warranties on consumer goods or cars for the same reason. Health, home and car insurance, all things that could end up with massive losses, rest I can pay for. Long term everyone is highly unlikely to come out ahead with any insurance they buy.

GAP was like $6 a month. Again, paying for peice of mind, you never know what the insurance company is going to value the car for if it's totaled.

Originally Posted by David70

So many talk about the mistake in money down on a lease but it like the rest of the money depends on the overall deal. You must realize that 2 months into your 36 month lease that everyone would prefer to get a new car over your 2 month old car with a 34 month term unless you paid some costs they will now avoid?

When shopping for lease takeovers, you aren't just shopping for the car, you are shopping for the car that was negotiated well and priced attractively for the market. They can certainly try and get the same lease payment and do all the work, negotiate and even find the car with the right options, or they can just take over mine where all the work is already done for them. Personally, I like the shopping and negotiating experience.

Originally Posted by David70

I have two cars, looking to buy a 3rd soon, prefer to have a decent daily (the consumable with low depreciation), with interesting weekend car that actually has appreciated. I look at my 7 year old ATS that I have had for 6 years that is close to new condition (61k miles) and can't see a reason to trade it and write a check for $35k for a car very similar. If I had leased I would be on my 3rd car from when I started.

I have 4 cars. I lease 2 of them. It's the best of both worlds! I'm looking to add another like you, used, but for weekends only. Low depreciation like a NA1 NSX or Porsche. I'll probably end up selling one of my cars, but I'll always have at least one leased car in my garage just to scratch that new car itch more often.

Originally Posted by David70

I think they love it when someone extends the lease. If you had negotiated a longer term up front the monthly payment would have been less and at that point they are leasing you a 3 year old car for a similar payment to a new one.

Actually, it's based on depreciation and longer terms have more depreciation, and adding a few months on a 36 month term is not the same thing as financing for a longer term.

It's only 2 months and they give you more miles. The lease I extended was on my daily i3, which was $199/mo including taxes at the time. I don't think I hit that big of a hit lol.

[Cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by jmg

That changes everything, I have no idea how leasing works in Canada! Fo that matter even state to state has different leasing strategies.

Regardless of Canada, if you try to price out a lease on BMW.com and base your understanding of lease rates you have little understanding of how the lease works.

The lease rate you get from BMW assumes you pay MSRP, and put all of your fees and everything else up front.

The point of knowing how a lease work is:
-Depreciation (residual value) is a FIXED number - but this number is set by the manufacturer month to month. Buying a car in March is almost guaranteed to give you a worse deal than November or December on the exact same vehicile.
-Your price paid is variable. There are manufacturer incentives (programs) like holiday bonus cash, loyalty, first responder, corporate, etc. These discounts all stack which means if you understand the timing you can get a tremendous discount.
-The overall discount is negotiated on top of those programs. This is the dealers bottom line as incentives come from the manufacturers, the dealer doesn't care about the cash that comes from BMW.
-Your monthly cost is the delta between the two. Unlike buying a car where your residual value is going to be based on the actual resale value of the car (Great for a Toyota or Lexus, not so great for your Kia).


Understanding all this is how some people get a M4 CS for the same monthly price as some people will pay for a base X3.

Concrete example of this:
If you price out my X5 on BMW.com with a $65K MSRP, and 12k/yr and add tax on top - it would be $1050/mo, I pay ~$650 with nothing down up front except the state fees/DMV and MSD's. That literally means through the negotiation and leverage of programs alone the cost delta could be $400/month based on bad negotiations and misunderstanding of the programs.

[Cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by David70

So many talk about the mistake in money down on a lease but it like the rest of the money depends on the overall deal. You must realize that 2 months into your 36 month lease that everyone would prefer to get a new car over your 2 month old car with a 34 month term unless you paid some costs they will now avoid?

Per the previous comment, see why this is wrong and incorrect in thinking.

1- Residuals and programs vary month to month. I got a great deal in December and all those programs went poof on Jan 4th.
2 - Putting cash down on a lease is a bad idea for the same reason gap coverage is important. If you put $10K down on a car, drive it off the lot and into a ditch - the insurance will almost certainly ONLY satisfy the remaining payoff on the loan, and not repay money you paid in advanced on taxes or capital cost reductions.

And that's why lease swaps can be attractive. Most BMW loaner cars can be leased for 16-18% discount before those incentives. For those who don't care about a very particular spec this is a tremendous way to get a car that is fully covered under warranty for an extremely low monthly payment. This is what I recommend to many people who leases will work for.

Nobody has to convince you to lease, but once you visit a site like Leasehackr you clearly understand there are ridiculously good deals to be had out there on new cars, and if you follow the process and buy when a deal is good it is very easy to get a car for extremely little.

Volvo also has tremendously good deals over the past few months. Here's a near $70k Volvo for $495/mo by stacking $10k+ in incentives. Some of these deals require a substantial amount of legwork to achieve, but if money is worth some to you then it's hard to argue driving the same car that would cost you ~$1200+/mo to finance.

[CTinline-six]

Originally Posted by BimmerDimmer6

You don't get out much, huh?

Yeah that most definitely must be it.


I don't believe it because it's a New York story.

[CTinline-six]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

Not sure what's not to believe, they keep track of your odometer through a bunch of computers. Some cars are smart enough to use the telematics to report that back to the dealer/manufacturer, but they have plenty of workarounds for different makes and models. Visit Brighton Beach, there are a bunch of nice Russian guys who will sell you a new telematics cluster for your MB to over-ride all of that functionality.

BMW's track that info using multiple disparate systems to try to over-ride that, but if you know how all those system's work any digital value stored on a chip can be tampered with.

And yes, this is a "New York" story. Lol.

Heres a youtube video of a guy giving step by step instructions for reprogramming the EEPROM on an older Lexus. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo

I know how it works, and I've dealt with cars when I worked in the insurance world that actually had this done.

I'm saying to me this sounds more like a cool story to tell people on the internet.

[Cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by CTinline-six

Yeah that most definitely must be it.


I don't believe it because it's a New York story.

Yes because I have tremendous incentive to make up tall tales to guys on the internet.

Also that youtube video I posted is clearly photoshopped because nobody knows how a serial port works.

If it adds any depth, the guy who did this was a CTO at a tech company. He liked doing it because hacking microcontrollers was his idea of a good time.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

Regardless of Canada, if you try to price out a lease on BMW.com and base your understanding of lease rates you have little understanding of how the lease works.

The lease rate you get from BMW assumes you pay MSRP, and put all of your fees and everything else up front.

The point of knowing how a lease work is:
-Depreciation (residual value) is a FIXED number - but this number is set by the manufacturer month to month. Buying a car in March is almost guaranteed to give you a worse deal than November or December on the exact same vehicile.
-Your price paid is variable. There are manufacturer incentives (programs) like holiday bonus cash, loyalty, first responder, corporate, etc. These discounts all stack which means if you understand the timing you can get a tremendous discount.
-The overall discount is negotiated on top of those programs. This is the dealers bottom line as incentives come from the manufacturers, the dealer doesn't care about the cash that comes from BMW.
-Your monthly cost is the delta between the two. Unlike buying a car where your residual value is going to be based on the actual resale value of the car (Great for a Toyota or Lexus, not so great for your Kia).


Understanding all this is how some people get a M4 CS for the same monthly price as some people will pay for a base X3.

Concrete example of this:
If you price out my X5 on BMW.com with a $65K MSRP, and 12k/yr and add tax on top - it would be $1050/mo, I pay ~$650 with nothing down up front except the state fees/DMV and MSD's. That literally means through the negotiation and leverage of programs alone the cost delta could be $400/month based on bad negotiations and misunderstanding of the programs.

Agreed, I think too many people look at the lease deals on the manufacturer website and get scared away. This is merely price anchoring, those of us who put the time and effort into understanding leases and fairly comparing leasing vs financing vs buying know what we are getting for a small premium. We know it's a short term, we know we are paying a little more for a new car every 3 years.

[Cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by CTinline-six

I know how it works, and I've dealt with cars when I worked in the insurance world that actually had this done.

I'm saying to me this sounds more like a cool story to tell people on the internet.

"This happens, I know it's feasible, and I don't believe it because someone told it to me on the internet".

OK dude, if you want to act like a tool enjoy your $5,000 3 series and sound financial advice.

[Cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by jmg

Agreed, I think too many people look at the lease deals on the manufacturer website and get scared away. This is merely price anchoring, those of us who put the time and effort into understanding leases and fairly comparing leasing vs financing vs buying know what we are getting for a small premium. We know it's a short term, we know we are paying a little more for a new car every 3 years.

If I actually fit into an i3 I would've bought one just for shits and giggles, the recent incentives on those have been ridiculous.

I didn't have any intention of buying my M3 but I just couldn't resist having some seat time in one.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

If I actually fit into an i3 I would've bought one just for shits and giggles, the recent incentives on those have been ridiculous.

I didn't have any intention of buying my M3 but I just couldn't resist having some seat time in one.

One day I will share my story on how I drove an i3 on lease for a year not only for free, but got back some money. I was so happy I leased another one.

[Cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by jmg

One day I will share my story on how I drove an i3 on lease for a year not only for free, but got back some money. I was so happy I leased another one.

Please don't. Guys on the internet will just think you're exaggerating.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

Please don't. Guys on the internet will just think you're exaggerating.

That's why I haven't posted it.