Quote:
Originally Posted by CntryClub007
Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW
Quote:
Originally Posted by CntryClub007
Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW
Its good video but let's critique and study this a little further.
1. BMW just made its biggest transmission purchase in history
2. BMW racecars all use sequential transmissions
3. DCT hasn't been developed for over 500 hp
4. BMW tells shareholders every car in the line up can be hybridized
5. BMW must make efficient cars due to regulations
Here's the picture if you haven't deduced it already. It's cheap to buy in bulk. Using on transmission on every car in the line up means you can make a big bill order and reduce costs.
2. BMWs SMG broke a lot but it is still the fastest shift time they have sold and with a modern cpu attached and a reliable pump it would be the best performance transmission. It wouldn't be the smoothest but I'm assuming we are here because we want performance. Hydraulic pump and dog clutch sequentials are still the transmission of Porsche BMW and every other race car. 20 years of development to improve SMGs for street use would have been expensive and have limited application (M cars) but it would be much better than ZF8.
3. DCT likewise hasn't been used in racing for a while but it's smoother than SMG and nearly as fast which makes it a good option for street cars. However, development of a new one for modern HP and torque is expensive with limited application.
4. ZF8 has the ability to remove the slush box and apply an electric motor. Again one transmission can be used on every vehicle in BMWs line up hybrid or ICE.
5. ZF8 has a nice highway gear and 6% efficiency boost over the ZF6 so they can report reduced emissions.
6. No manual transmission is rated for 500 hp and BMW isn't spending money to develop a new one, opting instead to reduce HP on the next M3 if manual is chosen.
Essentially BMW has opted to end the traditional use of Motorsport tech in street cars and just said ZF8 is good enough. It's pretty good sure but it's also pretty soulless. Slamming gears in the SMGs highest setting is fun and satisfying. Same with the DCT. I don't even need to mention a stick.
ZF8 is a soulless mass produced commuter transmission and BMW is cutting big costs ( and still raising prices!) by putting it in the M5 and soon the rest of its line up.
There is no question the 3 transmissions I listed above are/could be better than ZF8 at spirited driving. BMW has decided that 'fun' is not profitable and won't be developing any more Motorsport tech for street use.
Everyone should bitch at BMW about this. That's the whole point of the M brand. BMW wants to just make money off of the name without giving it any meaning.
The next step is a FWD 3 series to cut costs too.
This is IMO unacceptable. BMW has never made more money than last year and they can afford to race, develop a manual transmission or whatever they want.
They just want to save money. If they don't change buy BMW stock not cars.
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Definitely a very thoughtful and laid out response. I agree and I don't agree.
Here is my main thing, competition. It is really increasing, Tesla is making a strong push, I almost feel like BMW had to do this to make a good product on the street. On a mechanical engineering level, while the same base transmission can be used, a lot of differences exist vehicle platform to vehicle platform (linkages, tuning, placement etc...). Hopefully be leveraging a common design, more thought can be put into other engineering areas in the vehicle. For example, greater focus on the ///M trans!
However, here is where I totally agree. ///M. That needs to be something special or even marketed in a way that the technology backs it up with performance.
It will be interesting to see what happens with the new M3/M4. |
Well a ZF8 in a 328i is fine or even a 335i.
It's just the M name is becoming a badge and an upcharge compared to what it was, which used to mean homologated race car.
The e60 M5 got you F1 trans and engine. F80 has the GTE/GTLM engine, and I like it don't get me wrong, but the trans and weight and AWD kind of makes you scratch your head and wonder where's the dogclutch or DCT to complete the package.
Essentially what you are saying is true: BMW has left the niche stage and entered into mass market growth. I've accepted that but it would be nice to see the M brand closer to its origins. Ultimately a modern M5 needs to get the exec on a lease to resign for a new one and he won't if his DCT is shaky at stoplights. He wants a Badge and a comfy ride, and doesn't know what F1 is, so a V10 from an F1 program is meaningless to him. An SMG is a rough and bumpy. ZF8 is smooth and he doesn't think about it. THATS why BMW put it in there. Along with its cheap. Nothing to do with Motorsport applications.
I complain by the modern M cars do share less with production cars than ever before HOWEVER where it counts you're seeing a watered down approach. The M335i and M3 engine are pretty similar, which is fine, but I'm well aware they're doing it to cut costs, not because it's a race engine like the E9x M3 had.
If this trend continues I'm not going to be buying them because at this point a tuned 240i is closer to a race car (240i race at Nurburgring 24h) than any of the M cars and it costs less.
I still like M cars but Ive caught on to the changing winds. |
I'd fully agree with what you just said. Worded it well too, wish BMW was reading this.
Looking at the homage of what M cars were in their time, not looking back on an M car being 10 years old today, but back in their prime, they were an absolute breed of special, they were completely different. To your point, literally an F1 engine in the E60, people still stop to watch that car in downtown Chicago.
Even looking at a B58 M340i X-Drive and an F80 M3, toss in a JB4 and methanol on the 340, and you are making some serious power, quite reliably too, why am I spending another $25K for the M?
M-Sport/Performance and ///M are getting very close to each other. When taking a step back, it is a phenomenal marketing effort, but something raw and unadulterated needs to come out of BMW. Call it the ///F for all I care. Maybe this is where they are trying to go with the Competition, CS, GTS etc...
It's also hard when (IMO), BMW is truly making the best product on the road, they don't genuinely need to be better than what they are doing, so why do it? Do they want to play in the land of exotics? The E60 M5 was really a Lambo with 4 doors at the end of the day. They are always cautious in this territory. I wouldn't consider an i8 to be all of that "special" in the world of fascinating vehicles. |
Yeah that's probably true. I'm trying to figure out why there are 5 tiers of M cars when before there was one.
The M550i badge is obviously to parallel the Audi S6 to get more people to pay for a bigger engine. IMO the new M240i etc tier is pretty tempting for what you get. Just new springs and a flash and you've got a hell of a car.
But then M3, M3 competition, M3 CS, M3 CSL.
My thought was originally the F10 M5 was a bit underwhelming. It gained 200 lbs over the e60 and 50 hp. The turbo V8 sounded muffled and then they piped it in and it sort of damaged the brand. You talk to non-BMW guys and BMW is the 'engine through the speakers brand'. The competition was sort of a course correction/damage control type of thing giving it the power boost it needed and better suspension.
Then I think somebody decided the M cars should compete with Porsche and the idea Of the 5 tier M car emerged to rival Porsche's Base-S-GTS thing.
Idk. I worry BMW is getting to big and watering down themselves they could end up like Cadillac where they just can't figure it out anymore e