Is a V6 better than an I6?

[RM7]

Had the Mercedes 3.2 V6. It was smoooooth.

[Efthreeoh]

This is a complicated subject. But the basics are this:

Engines vibrate for a bunch of reasons, but mainly because of a phenomenon called the "rocking couple". It's when two pistons don't balance each other. Put a third piston (cylinder) in the system and it can counteract the rocking couple effect. But that depends on the bank angle of the block and design (position) of the crankthrows. An inline six has natural elimination of two rocking couples, which makes it inherently smooth and vibration free. A flat 6 is nothing more than an inline six laid down flat, which is why flat sixes are low vibration designs. Inline and flat sixes are known as naturally balanced engines. I have both designs in my vehicles. The other engine I have is a small block. The Wife's Z4 has the M44 in it, which is a paint shaker in comparison.

A 90 degree block angle (an inline engine block is zero-degree and a flat block is 180 degree) for a V8 is another very low vibration design. A 60 degree V6 is also very low in vibration (harmonics) as well.

A lot of car companies to save tooling costs will build 90 deg. V6 engines because they can be built on the same 90 deg. engine line as the V8 engine. Mercedes did this back in the early 90's when it dropped the inline 6. Most good V6's are 60 deg. blocks. 90 deg. V6 blocks need a balance shaft to act as counter weight to eliminate the rocking couple effect.

Anyway that's a real short explanation in simplistic terms. But as others have said, it all depends on packaging of the driveline and desired architecture of the vehicle.

[Red Bread]

Let's not forget Jaguar's lovely solution. A 90° V8 block with only six pistons.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by tock172

Two different things. Boxer engines have an individual crank pin for each piston while flat 180-degree engines share a set of crank pins.

No love for the Ferrari Dino GT?

Technically just a Dino 206/246, they were a sub brand, not a full blown (or badged) Ferrari. Of course a few sprouted prancing horses, but they didn't start life that way.

[damnitBobby]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

V6 is cool for minivans and asian market vehicles

And cool enough for Porsche to use it in their Cayenne, Panamera, and Macan models. Also cool enough for Audi and their RS models.

[overcoil]

Originally Posted by damnitBobby

And cool enough for Porsche to use it in their Cayenne, Panamera, and Macan models. Also cool enough for Audi and their RS models.

And Formula 1 engines past and present.

[overcoil]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Let's not forget Jaguar's lovely solution. A 90° V8 block with only six pistons.

Lardy not lovely https://blog.caranddriver.com/block-...ers-redundant/

[RABAUKE]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

This is a complicated subject. But the basics are this:

Engines vibrate for a bunch of reasons, but mainly because of a phenomenon called the "rocking couple". It's when two pistons don't balance each other. Put a third piston (cylinder) in the system and it can counteract the rocking couple effect. But that depends on the bank angle of the block and design (position) of the crankthrows. An inline six has natural elimination of two rocking couples, which makes it inherently smooth and vibration free. A flat 6 is nothing more than an inline six laid down flat, which is why flat sixes are low vibration designs. Inline and flat sixes are known as naturally balanced engines. I have both designs in my vehicles. The other engine I have is a small block. The Wife's Z4 has the M44 in it, which is a paint shaker in comparison.

A 90 degree block angle (an inline engine block is zero-degree and a flat block is 180 degree) for a V8 is another very low vibration design. A 60 degree V6 is also very low in vibration (harmonics) as well.

A lot of car companies to save tooling costs will build 90 deg. V6 engines because they can be built on the same 90 deg. engine line as the V8 engine. Mercedes did this back in the early 90's when it dropped the inline 6. Most good V6's are 60 deg. blocks. 90 deg. V6 blocks need a balance shaft to act as counter weight to eliminate the rocking couple effect.

Anyway that's a real short explanation in simplistic terms. But as others have said, it all depends on packaging of the driveline and desired architecture of the vehicle.

I could be wrong, but aren't flat sixes and V-sixes configured somewhat differently than an inline six as the block is a lot shorter?

[tock172]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Technically just a Dino 206/246, they were a sub brand, not a full blown (or badged) Ferrari. Of course a few sprouted prancing horses, but they didn't start life that way.

Way to split hairs. The V6 that powered all of the Dino cars was a Ferrari design.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by bimmer456

So the V12 in the M760li should be able to drop into the F30?

Nope.

The bulkhead/firewall/tunnel structure has space in the centre for the I6 to be set back into it, the V12 wouldn't thus fit without undertaking a lot of metalwork surgery in that area which would impact on the pass footwell area in all likelyhood.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by tock172

Way to split hairs. The V6 that powered all of the Dino cars was a Ferrari design.

Indeed.

Not only that, but that V6 was designed at 'Dinos' instigation to be Ferrari's Formula 2 race-engine from the outset, not as a road engine, and it was only because the rules changed later and the engine needed homolgation with 500 road examples being required that Ferrari and Fiat created the Fiat Dino etc., with Ferrari following later with the 206/246.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Let's not forget Jaguar's lovely solution. A 90° V8 block with only six pistons.

That's appalling and quite frankly embarrassing, cheapskates charging full up money for half assed solutions.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by damnitBobby

And cool enough for Porsche to use it in their Cayenne, Panamera, and Macan models. Also cool enough for Audi and their RS models.

My apologies to soccer mom's

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by tock172

Way to split hairs. The V6 that powered all of the Dino cars was a Ferrari design.

Used in Fiats. Would you call a current Maserati or Alfa Romeo a Ferrari? They have Ferrari designed engines too.

The Dino brand also sold the 308GT4. It was created to sell non V12 cars but was brought back under the Ferrari brand in '76. So confusingly, there are both Dino and Ferrari 308 GTs, but all 206GT and 246GTs were Dinos and are even frequently referred to as just Dinos.

Fiat Dino, for reference.
[IMG]https://assets.hemmings.com/story_im...00-0.jpg?rev=3[/IMG]

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Let's not forget Jaguar's lovely solution. A 90° V8 block with only six pistons.

Kill list.

[pokeybritches]

IMHO, I6's are typically used where the engine is the defining characteristic of the car, because it's a difficult design to incorporate while maintaining good handling characteristics. V6's are used for packaging. Flat 6's have both natural balance and are best for handling (short engine, low CG), but are difficult to engineer around (sometimes requiring suspension compromises).

Inline 6 - The I6 is a naturally balanced engine, though it's not harmonics free. In a general sense, the I6's natural balance means you can have either a longer stroke (more torque) or a higher redline (more rpm) to produce more horsepower. The long crankshaft can be prone to flexing, and it has increased rotational inertia versus a flat 6 (noticed primarily when trying to change gears quickly or rev match). I6's are turbo friendly due to their even exhaust pulsing and lateral space in the engine bay (depending on engine orientation), and can be easier to service. The I6 is probably the worst engine for handling, as the long block has high rotational inertia. Want to move the engine forward to make room for suspension/steering components/some new tech?? Too bad, engine placement takes priority. Designers are often pushed towards undersquare designs to keep block length lower. The I6 is a defining characteristic of many BMW's, but there are handling compromises that are incurred, beyond extra measures required to achieve 50/50 weight distribution. The Z4M with the S54 is known for corner entry understeer, which transitions to oversteer midway through the turn, and aftermarket suspension setups focus on tuning out these natural tendencies... essentially working around the handling penalty of the glorious sing-songy S54.

V6 - As has been stated in another post, V6's are generally more expensive to initially design and require additional balancing measures, but they are the easiest to package into the engine bay. V6's work well with FWD cars, due to their packaging. This is a good design for cars where the engine performance may be secondary to other considerations, because designers are given some flexibility in engine placement.

Flat 6 - The Flat 6 has the lowest CG and polar moment, but is the most difficult to service. The width of the engine also means that suspension components have less space available around the engine. Flat 6's pair well with dual clutch transmissions (all the PDK love isn't just because of the transmission itself; PDK works in harmony with the low rotational inertia of the Flat 6 engines to produce lightning quick shifts). The Flat 6 is another engine that requires design priority, where the rest of the car is designed around the engine and its placement.

You can find examples of all kinds of engines that don't follow these generalities (like my Jeep, with an oversquare I6 that's tuned for longevity and certainly not the defining characteristic of the vehicle, or the Flat 6 Subarus). That's why I consider these points to be generalities, and not law.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by RABAUKE

I could be wrong, but aren't flat sixes and V-sixes configured somewhat differently than an inline six as the block is a lot shorter?

The block is shorter because the cylinder spacing can be almost halved, but the crank pin positioning is the same as far as cancelling vibrations.

[Efthreeoh]

Then there was Buick's straight eight... What a Fireball!

[tock172]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Used in Fiats. Would you call a current Maserati or Alfa Romeo a Ferrari? They have Ferrari designed engines too.

No, I wouldn't, although I am aware of the F136 Ferrari engine that is used in the current crop of Maserati cars.

The Lancia Thema 8.32 also used a Ferrari F105L engine, but it is most certainly a Lancia and not a Ferrari.

Originally Posted by Red Bread

The Dino brand also sold the 308GT4. It was created to sell non V12 cars but was brought back under the Ferrari brand in '76. So confusingly, there are both Dino and Ferrari 308 GTs, but all 206GT and 246GTs were Dinos and are even frequently referred to as just Dinos.

Fiat Dino, for reference.
[IMG]https://assets.hemmings.com/story_im...00-0.jpg?rev=3[/IMG]

Although the Fiat Dino cars use the same engine, I was specifically referring to the Dino GT cars, all of which, including the 308 GT4 2+2 were produced by Ferrari but badged as Dinos.

[Red Bread]

I've lost what we're arguing about. They were sold as Dinos. I'd say it's the same exact situation as the current Mini Countryman, which is built by BMW of BMW parts and motor, but sold as a Mini.

I love the 206GT and 246GT. I nearly bought a 206 way back in the 90s, one of a number of dumb non purchases. But they were only recently accepted into the Ferrari Owners Club and for me, they'll always be from a brand named after Enzo's dead son, not from his primary brand.

That Lampredi motor was the first V6 I really loved, the NSX being the only other one that pushes all of my buttons. Doesn't hurt that the style of the Coupes is possibly my favorite shape from Italy of that era.

I followed a white 246 GTS about a month ago on my commute. Looked all original and not well cared for, but was still glorious.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I'd say it's the same exact situation as the current Mini Countryman, which is built by BMW of BMW parts and motor, but sold as a Mini.

Almost an exact analogy. But the dino's were build at the ferrari factory by ferrari crew afaik.
For the countryman thats only true as of last august (at least for the facotry in Born)
But indeed, no ferrari badge, no ferrari. Just as a seat isn't a skoda or vw.

That Lampredi motor was the first V6 I really loved,

The Lampredi engine is an I4

[Red Bread]

Lampredi was in charge of converting the racing Dino 196 motor to road car use. Of course, Lampredi had his hands on just about every Fiat and Ferrari motor of that era.