New Ytest
Sign out
Bimmerpost
Login
BMW E39 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read  
Go Back   BMW E39 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-23-2017, 05:18 PM   #1
The Choosey begger
Libertarian
The Choosey begger's Avatar
United_States
71934
Rep
4,035
Posts

 
Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Sanctuary City

iTrader: (0)

Is a V6 better than an I6?

Your thoughts, thanks!
Appreciate 0
      12-23-2017, 05:30 PM   #2
floydarogers
Curmudgeon and Pedant
floydarogers's Avatar
United_States
690
Rep
3,489
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 335d, 2014 328d
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Bellevue, WA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by anglo View Post
Your thoughts, thanks!
As with any engineering question, the answer is: "it depends"

If you want an engine that doesn't have excess Vibration and Harshness (the VH in NVH), then the I6 is unquestionably better. However:

When it comes to packaging and weight questions, the V6 is "better", although the weight question becomes more of a wash when balance shafts are added to a V6 to solve VH.

More tradeoffs occur when a V6 is turbocharged - exhaust and/or charge pipes are longer (unless hot-V) which causes more lag, and other problems. An I6 is somewhat easier to turbocharge.

The long I6 crankshaft and camshafts may cause more manufacturing/maintenance/reliability problems than the shorter ones in a V6.
Appreciate 1
Robin_NL8679.50
      12-23-2017, 05:51 PM   #3
RABAUKE
Banned
Canada
4653
Rep
1,395
Posts

 
Drives: Porsche 993, 2014 MB GLK
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: The Golden Horseshoe, Ontario

iTrader: (0)

Lets not forget about the flat 6
Appreciate 1
      12-23-2017, 06:23 PM   #4
ccdre
Lieutenant
ccdre's Avatar
United_States
337
Rep
404
Posts

 
Drives: '10 AW 135i, '13 Frozen M3
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't use the term "better" for either one.
For an enthusiast, an inline 6 tends to be easier to work on, smooth revving and overall simpler. The packaging is lot larger for an inline configuration. Generally speaking, you could fit a V12 engine in the same bay as an inline 6.

V6 engines are more compact, more rigid but also more prone to vibrations even with counter balancing shafts.

Just my $0.02
Appreciate 1
Robin_NL8679.50
      12-23-2017, 06:37 PM   #5
overcoil
Major General
3069
Rep
5,577
Posts

 
Drives: M235i 6spd
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Mid-Atlantic

iTrader: (0)

back in the early 90's when Mercedes went from inline-6 to V-6, pretty sure they said the shorter V-6 would help in front crash impact. Who know's how much was sales or reality.

then I read the inline six at extreme high rpm the crank can wobble - so probably why you don't see dedicated race engine designs that are inline-6 - at least none I can think of.
Appreciate 0
      12-23-2017, 07:08 PM   #6
///M Power-Belgium
General
///M Power-Belgium's Avatar
Belgium
62737
Rep
24,509
Posts

 
Drives: ///M3-E92-DCT Silverstone II
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Give me a Boxer flat 6...
__________________
"MAX VERSTAPPEN" IS THE 2021+2022+2023 F1 WORLD CHAMPION - #UnLeashTheLion

BPM DEV-Tune & DCT Software-Tune & Servotronic & coding ///Alpine HID Angeleyes ///Oem.exhaust mod.
Appreciate 1
Faredo311.00
      12-23-2017, 08:14 PM   #7
wdb
dances with roads
wdb's Avatar
4673
Rep
4,090
Posts

 
Drives: '07 E86, '02 996, '95 Seven
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: the perimeter

iTrader: (4)

I have two of each at the moment. All have their fine points, none is quite like the other. Perhaps you could focus your question a bit.
Appreciate 0
      12-23-2017, 11:18 PM   #8
The Choosey begger
Libertarian
The Choosey begger's Avatar
United_States
71934
Rep
4,035
Posts

 
Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Sanctuary City

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RABAUKE View Post
Lets not forget about the flat 6
I'd say flat 6 is even better than v6 since it lowers the CG.
Appreciate 1
RABAUKE4653.00
      12-23-2017, 11:19 PM   #9
The Choosey begger
Libertarian
The Choosey begger's Avatar
United_States
71934
Rep
4,035
Posts

 
Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Sanctuary City

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wdb View Post
I have two of each at the moment. All have their fine points, none is quite like the other. Perhaps you could focus your question a bit.
Handling wise...
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2017, 01:15 AM   #10
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
10473
Rep
4,815
Posts

 
Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

Every engine configuration is compromised at some point.

Even handling wise there is nothing really to tell. Handling wise its not the engine, but where and how its fitted into the chassis. (and of course how the chassis is tuned to that).

IMHO BMW positiones its long I6 better into the chassis than audi does with its v6 (or toyota did with their I6 into the supra chassis)
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ supercharger | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers/KW camber plates | Sachs race engineering clutch | tons of custom sh#t
Appreciate 1
Robin_NL8679.50
      12-24-2017, 06:57 AM   #11
The Choosey begger
Libertarian
The Choosey begger's Avatar
United_States
71934
Rep
4,035
Posts

 
Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Sanctuary City

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Every engine configuration is compromised at some point.

Even handling wise there is nothing really to tell. Handling wise its not the engine, but where and how its fitted into the chassis. (and of course how the chassis is tuned to that).

IMHO BMW positiones its long I6 better into the chassis than audi does with its v6 (or toyota did with their I6 into the supra chassis)
A v6 or flat six will further move the weight toward the back, what M cars desperately need.

With the driver in the car, your BMW is not 50/50 weight distribution. Besides 40/60 is optimal for traction on rwd.

Audi nose heavy is due to the quattro system, and where the engine is placed not so much because of v6's.
Appreciate 1
Robin_NL8679.50
      12-24-2017, 07:50 AM   #12
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
10473
Rep
4,815
Posts

 
Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

Yes thats what I said: Its not the engine per say, its how its fitted.

And regarding to weight distribution, I dont know if you ever drove a simca 1000, or nsu prinz, or cars in that configuration.... Traction is just half of the part regarding handling.
The other half is steering.
BMW's are designed to be great handling cars in their class, not stoplight sprinters.

In general a v6 is a compromise primarily done out of space.
It's more expensive to make, heat and flow management is more difficult, and it has more parts (more parts mean more friction too).
You can see that for example in industrial engines. 6 cyl configs are usually inline.
Same goes for 4 cylinders.

And the I6 is of course the first config that is primary and secondary balanced in its inherit design
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ supercharger | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers/KW camber plates | Sachs race engineering clutch | tons of custom sh#t

Last edited by GuidoK; 12-24-2017 at 08:17 AM..
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2017, 08:42 AM   #13
EJT86
Brigadier General
EJT86's Avatar
United_States
2383
Rep
3,726
Posts

 
Drives: 2018 M2
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Boston, MA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
  [0.00]
2018 BMW M2  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by RABAUKE View Post
Lets not forget about the flat 6
Or Six Flags
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2017, 11:47 AM   #14
Mandi90TT
Colonel
United_States
2712
Rep
2,371
Posts

 
Drives: BSM 6MT M4 F82
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

best thing about a straight 6 is the long hoodline. I think it looks great. Brings me back to the days of the 240/260/280Z cars, which i think were pretty awesome. I kind of feel my M4 is a spiritual successor to the original Z cars
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2017, 03:47 PM   #15
ShocknAwe
1Addict
ShocknAwe's Avatar
3197
Rep
7,859
Posts

 
Drives: E82 Mutt, M57 Truck
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Charleston

iTrader: (22)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 90TT View Post
best thing about a straight 6 is the long hoodline. I think it looks great. Brings me back to the days of the 240/260/280Z cars, which i think were pretty awesome. I kind of feel my M4 is a spiritual successor to the original Z cars
How so?
__________________
2010 135i 6MT Jet Black
N54/3 FE82 Mutt | BUILD THREAD | GARAGE SALE
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2017, 03:59 PM   #16
aaaaah
Lieutenant
354
Rep
407
Posts

 
Drives: Nuggets
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: AU

iTrader: (0)

Packaging yes.

Driving experience no.
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2017, 04:07 PM   #17
sygazelle
Brigadier General
11091
Rep
3,404
Posts

 
Drives: 2014 328i M-Sport, 2019 X5 40i
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: San Francisco

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by anglo View Post
Handling wise...

Handling wise, then an inline 4 is better. Somebody get the popcorn
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2017, 05:46 PM   #18
tock172
Beachtown Bill Collector
tock172's Avatar
United_States
582
Rep
1,062
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 135i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Diego

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2012 BMW 135i  [0.00]
1999 Lexus LS400  [0.00]
1985 BMW 325e  [0.00]
I'm personally not a huge fan of V6 engines in general, but there have been some very cool ones like the Alfa Romeo Busso, the odd-firing Dauntless found in older Jeeps and of course the Buick 3800. Some of the Audi designs with 5 valves per cylinder are neat too, and so are some of the SOHC (per bank) Mercedes designs that use a 3-valve head.

That being said, my biggest complaint is that a V6, no matter if it is 60, 90 or 120 degrees is always an inherently unbalanced engine. Even with balancing shafts (which add weight and subtract performance), a V6 has always felt like a compromise to me.

Although packaging constraints limit their use, inline sixes and flat sixes are perfectly balanced. Why try to reinvent the wheel if you don't have to?

Mercedes has just launched a brand new turbocharged, DOHC, 24-valve inline six paired with a hybrid drivetrain in the next generation CLS after using V6s for close to 30 years.
__________________


2012 BMW 135i Space Grey Metallic M-Sport DCT Dinan S2
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2017, 05:50 PM   #19
1MOREMOD
-
1MOREMOD's Avatar
United_States
11815
Rep
23,187
Posts

 
Drives: Race car->
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: check your mirrors

iTrader: (5)

V6 is cool for minivans and asian market vehicles
Appreciate 1
      12-24-2017, 06:02 PM   #20
tock172
Beachtown Bill Collector
tock172's Avatar
United_States
582
Rep
1,062
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 135i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Diego

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2012 BMW 135i  [0.00]
1999 Lexus LS400  [0.00]
1985 BMW 325e  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Give me a Boxer flat 6...
Two different things. Boxer engines have an individual crank pin for each piston while flat 180-degree engines share a set of crank pins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
V6 is cool for minivans and asian market vehicles
No love for the Ferrari Dino GT?
__________________


2012 BMW 135i Space Grey Metallic M-Sport DCT Dinan S2
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2017, 06:21 PM   #21
1MOREMOD
-
1MOREMOD's Avatar
United_States
11815
Rep
23,187
Posts

 
Drives: Race car->
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: check your mirrors

iTrader: (5)

Those Italian bitches
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2017, 06:25 PM   #22
bimmer456
Major General
2938
Rep
5,983
Posts

 
Drives: 340i
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Pasadena, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdre View Post
I wouldn't use the term "better" for either one.
For an enthusiast, an inline 6 tends to be easier to work on, smooth revving and overall simpler. The packaging is lot larger for an inline configuration. Generally speaking, you could fit a V12 engine in the same bay as an inline 6.

V6 engines are more compact, more rigid but also more prone to vibrations even with counter balancing shafts.

Just my $0.02
So the V12 in the M760li should be able to drop into the F30? That would be one fast straight line car, but maybe not so much in the twisties. Maybe with x-drive you can get 0-60 in the 2's but would need the transmission from that car as well as the diff.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:34 AM.




5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST