Mercedes and BMW Admit They Have Too Many Models, But the Solution Is a Bummer

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by bavarian19

BMW does not care about what customers think. Only sales.

Sales performance defines how customers feel about your products and/or services. Businesses have to care about what customers think to win sales!

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by Tracus

Not everybody wants to be exposed to EMF and sit on a pile of toxic batteries. Each with its own bubble...

I'd argue it's worse than "not everyone."

Consumers almost never buy EVs without being subsidized. If these products were truly desirable they'd be threatened with dealer markups. Instead the "market adjustment" is tax payers being forced to chip in money to help try and make these products viable.

I found it especially interesting the poor ROI of the i division wasn't mentioned as being a challenge in the article. It clearly is.

[SCOTT26]

Why is it BMW has to step up their game in the EV market when Mercedes and Audi get the plaudits? The EQ and Q8 are concept cars and around 2 years from production. This had to be communicated to the media who also reported the same thing. BMW are the leading manufacturer for Premium EV vehicles in the segment.
The current iPerformance models not only lead their respective segments but account for around 10% of total volume and in some markets are the best selling model in that series. The BMWi3 is showing increase after increase each month with additional models due to be launched in the Summer including the Performance i3S. As well as an upgraded BMW i8 with additional Roadster and high performance iS.
Joining the range is the 530e iPerformance and a new MINI Countryman E. Followed by a new BMW X3 iPerformance a precursor to a full electric BMW X3. In the middle of 2018 will see the reveal of the all new BMW 3er which again will be offered as iPerformance and a full electric edition.

Other vehicles earmarked include the X7. The 8er Gran Coupe and a full electric X5 as well as a new BMWi SAV/Crossover. The BMW iNext taking shape is all about the next step. If the i8 was the "What if?" The iNext is the "inevitable"
And of course BMW will replace the i3 and i8 with the i8 offering full electric.
BMW has a current full electric i8 as well as one driven by Fuel Cell and of course an Autonomous model.

When talk about the application of sustainable drive trains? It is no longer a case of if? But when? The first model will be developed from BMWs three stage Power eDrive strategy which will be a 5er again to be followed in additional models.

We have to look at the future and proposals in which cities globally or looking at the banning of combustion cars. If we take China the worlds no1 luxury car market they are looking at a ban on all vehicles except EVs.
BMWs in development "Dreamliner" will be offered in full electric and can even be placed within the next generation of Rolls-Royce models.

The all-electric MINI taking shape like the BMW Next 100 is derived from its Vision Concept to have a similar imprint to a BMW i3.

It is inaccurate to say we are behind as it is to say we are stalling.
The overall stumbling block for current EVs and PHEVs is of course Range Anxiety and BMW customers are in transition. Some have already decided whilst some have already crossed over. In regards to what BMW offer in sustainable drive trains the company wants to make sure all areas are covered from a base Electric MINi. Increased popular SUV models. High Performance M cars and even luxury plus Rolls-Royce models. As the CEO did announce it is a Marathon not a short Sprint.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Why is it BMW has to step up their game in the EV market when Mercedes and Audi get the plaudits? The EQ and Q8 are concept cars and around 2 years from production. This had to be communicated to the media who also reported the same thing. BMW are the leading manufacturer for Premium EV vehicles in the segment.
The current iPerformance models not only lead their respective segments but account for around 10% of total volume and in some markets are the best selling model in that series. The BMWi3 is showing increase after increase each month with additional models due to be launched in the Summer including the Performance i3S. As well as an upgraded BMW i8 with additional Roadster and high performance iS.
Joining the range is the 530e iPerformance and a new MINI Countryman E. Followed by a new BMW X3 iPerformance a precursor to a full electric BMW X3. In the middle of 2018 will see the reveal of the all new BMW 3er which again will be offered as iPerformance and a full electric edition.

Other vehicles earmarked include the X7. The 8er Gran Coupe and a full electric X5 as well as a new BMWi SAV/Crossover. The BMW iNext taking shape is all about the next step. If the i8 was the "What if?" The iNext is the "inevitable"
And of course BMW will replace the i3 and i8 with the i8 offering full electric.
BMW has a current full electric i8 as well as one driven by Fuel Cell and of course an Autonomous model.

When talk about the application of sustainable drive trains? It is no longer a case of if? But when? The first model will be developed from BMWs three stage Power eDrive strategy which will be a 5er again to be followed in additional models.

We have to look at the future and proposals in which cities globally or looking at the banning of combustion cars. If we take China the worlds no1 luxury car market they are looking at a ban on all vehicles except EVs.
BMWs in development "Dreamliner" will be offered in full electric and can even be placed within the next generation of Rolls-Royce models.

The all-electric MINI taking shape like the BMW Next 100 is derived from its Vision Concept to have a similar imprint to a BMW i3.

It is inaccurate to say we are behind as it is to say we are stalling.
The overall stumbling block for current EVs and PHEVs is of course Range Anxiety and BMW customers are in transition. Some have already decided whilst some have already crossed over. In regards to what BMW offer in sustainable drive trains the company wants to make sure all areas are covered from a base Electric MINi. Increased popular SUV models. High Performance M cars and even luxury plus Rolls-Royce models. As the CEO did announce it is a Marathon not a short Sprint.

Thank you for the excellent retort and great perspective. I would like to push back on one point... The largest challenge to the widespread ownership of EVs is probably refueling (charging). For whatever reason everyone is imagined to have their own private home with an ability to recharge their (in most cases, multiple) cars. As someone living in the NY Metropolitan Area I can attest there are millions of us here living in apartments/condos... There are even millions more that use on-street parking. Neither can realistically own an EV even if they wanted to. The charging needs to get on par with fueling a gasoline or diesel if there is going to be the adoption legislators envision. If the sales aren't there laws will have to change.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Please delete. Sorry.

[Ghetto2315]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Please delete. Sorry.

Drunk post, eh?

We've all been there... lol

[Pyrat 2]

They are really just figuring this out now!??? Well better late than never. I don't recall the latest annual sales figures but that would be the starting point but also considering where each model sits in the lifecycle. I suspect that the GTs as well as the X4 and X6 would be getting scrutiny. Plus these cost real extra dollars for them because they are unique body styles with high tooling costs.

[visualguy]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

In the middle of 2018 will see the reveal of the all new BMW 3er which again will be offered as iPerformance and a full electric edition.

A full-electric 3er would be awesome. That's great news. I wish there was a full-electric 5er.

The plug-in hybrids (330e, 530e) don't qualify for the carpool lane in California (not green enough?)

[Brake_Late]

Originally Posted by Ghetto2315

Drunk post, eh?

We've all been there... lol

Rotfl

[kozzi]

Originally Posted by CalCarNut

I have an X3 and contemplate swapping my GC for the upcoming X3M..but it'll be priced into the stratosphere and I already have a truck. Makes zero sense and for the cost of the upcoming truck, I'd get a Cayman .

I'd like to see the sales charts for all the models. Seems like the bean counters could easily use that (and probably will at some point).

It's nice to have space for 3+ vehicles. We are a one vehicle family of 5 in the city...thus the X3M is perfect for us. Parking downtown Brooklyn/NYC is a PITA and on-street/garage parking is a nightmare...not to mention the weather. There is no better fit for us...even at $80K+...it's a no-brainer bargin.

The Xs make money and they are ADDING more models, not removing them, which was the point of this discussion. Removing the 3 series except for the M3 defeats the purpose. BMW needs to compress their line-up but they are adding more models as some sales slipped in 2016. We will see how the new 5er does, because I think it looks amazing. Here is an interesting read on BMW sales. Take note of the big sellers from 2015 to 2016 and the issues with inventory.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...iscounts-rise/

[STK]

A significant part of the increase in car models has to due with the increase in the length and weight of the 3, 5, and 7. The M2 is about the size of an E46 M3. The current M3 is the size of an old 5 series and is more equivalent to an old M5. (The 4 is 184" and the 635csi was 187") The population is aging, fatter, less enthusiast oriented, and wants sedans. Hence the death of roadsters and the success of GT "coupes." Oh, and M-SUVs because a real enthusiast wants a 2 1/2 ton vehicle.

[rainfall]

Originally Posted by STK

A significant part of the increase in car models has to due with the increase in the length and weight of the 3, 5, and 7. The M2 is about the size of an E46 M3. The current M3 is the size of an old 5 series and is more equivalent to an old M5. (The 4 is 184" and the 635csi was 187") The population is aging, fatter, less enthusiast oriented, and wants sedans. Hence the death of roadsters and the success of GT "coupes." Oh, and M-SUVs because a real enthusiast wants a 2 1/2 ton vehicle.

I wonder how many customers are holding off of getting a 2er because it's a 2 door and not getting a 3-series because it's too big (I am). While the looks of a 2-door coupe is much better, I don't understand why a 2 series can't have an option w/ 4 doors.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by rainfall

I wonder how many customers are holding off of getting a 2er because it's a 2 door and not getting a 3-series because it's too big (I am).

Well, if the sales numbers are anything to go by, I would guess a lot fewer are holding off than are buying an A3 or CLA instead.

One possibility is that BMW is betting on the gradual shift away from sedans to SUVs in many regions (including the US) to carry them through without the need to add a four-door below the 3 Series. It could explain why the 1 Series sedan has launched in China (an area where SUV adoption hasn't reached the levels it has in the west) but apparently is not, to the best of our knowledge, coming to North America.

It's true that X1 sales are brisk and the X2 is likely to be a hit too, but it would seem there is still a lot of life in the small luxury sedan segment base on competitors' success. Of course, a 2 Series Gran Coupe is still possible, but we have nothing concrete to prove it exists yet.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Well, if the sales numbers are anything to go by, I would guess a lot fewer are holding off than are buying an A3 or CLA instead.

One possibility is that BMW is betting on the gradual shift away from sedans to SUVs in many regions (including the US) to carry them through without the need to add a four-door below the 3 Series. It could explain why the 1 Series sedan has launched in China (an area where SUV adoption hasn't reached the levels it has in the west) but apparently is not, to the best of our knowledge, coming to North America.

It's true that X1 sales are brisk and the X2 is likely to be a hit too, but it would seem there is still a lot of life in the small luxury sedan segment base on competitors' success. Of course, a 2 Series Gran Coupe is still possible, but we have nothing concrete to prove it exists yet.

X1 sales are crazy at the moment that we are in approach to the 1 millionth X1 vehicle produced which is a feat that it is currently a 2 cycle model. However the X3 also made its Millionth unit in its second cycle the F25.
We also have to look at the strategy to produce the X1 in the Nedcar plant in the Netherlands because of increasing demand.

The F52 is to test in the USA and other markets. Believe it or not with the possibility to offer the entry level car later. The car has just recently launched in China and it's response is impressive drawing in a lot of younger customers as intended who are new to BMW or only with pre-owned BMW models.

The X2 offers more lifestyle sportiness than flexibility. And for many that is all they require.

[c63er]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

X1 sales are crazy at the moment that we are in approach to the 1 millionth X1 vehicle produced which is a feat that it is currently a 2 cycle model. However the X3 also made its Millionth unit in its second cycle the F25.
We also have to look at the strategy to produce the X1 in the Nedcar plant in the Netherlands because of increasing demand.

The F52 is to test in the USA and other markets. Believe it or not with the possibility to offer the entry level car later. The car has just recently launched in China and it's response is impressive drawing in a lot of younger customers as intended who are new to BMW or only with pre-owned BMW models.

The X2 offers more lifestyle sportiness than flexibility. And for many that is all they require.

News flash. People like small bmws.

Pretty much what this forum has been saying for the last 10 years and were ridiculed for saying it.

[kozzi]

Originally Posted by rainfall

I wonder how many customers are holding off of getting a 2er because it's a 2 door and not getting a 3-series because it's too big (I am). While the looks of a 2-door coupe is much better, I don't understand why a 2 series can't have an option w/ 4 doors.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Well, if the sales numbers are anything to go by, I would guess a lot fewer are holding off than are buying an A3 or CLA instead.

One possibility is that BMW is betting on the gradual shift away from sedans to SUVs in many regions (including the US) to carry them through without the need to add a four-door below the 3 Series. It could explain why the 1 Series sedan has launched in China (an area where SUV adoption hasn't reached the levels it has in the west) but apparently is not, to the best of our knowledge, coming to North America.

It's true that X1 sales are brisk and the X2 is likely to be hit too, but it would seem there is still a lot of life in the small luxury sedan segment base on competitors' success. Of course, a 2 Series Gran Coupe is still possible, but we have nothing concrete to prove it exists yet.

It would help to compress the line-up to 4 doors all being "Gran Coupe" (an evolution/morph between a GC and sedan) for the 3, 5, 7 and 2 doors being "Coupe" offered via 4, 6, 8. Isn't that the whole reason BMW created the 4 series to begin with? The Xs could also follow this model up to the X7. The 1 and 2 could have both versions (which could include Z1 and Z2 type coupe versions) as they would be more versatile for customers depending on need/location etc. Offer XDrive only on all X models and the 5er on up. Then only offer *30i(4cyl), *40i(6cyl), *50i(8cyl), EV (Hybrid/i technology) and M versions on specific models where the market/vehicle makes sense. This allows for customer options and flexibility without all the non-enthusiast confusion. This would eliminate GTs, repetitive sedans, estates (properly designed GCs would fill this segment) and M-Performance models where a full M version is offered.

[Blauweiss1988]

IMHO BMW need:

-3-5-7-X3 -X5 "basic" line (sedan, touring and SUV)
-4- 8 -X4-X6 "sport" line (coupes , cabrio and SAC)
-6GT :911 competitor
-M2002 turbo (new M2)
-Z5: Roadster

4 Grancoupe i think have to be save and 8 series IMHO need also the GC (extra luxury sport sedan)

Kill 1-2-3GT-5GT-X1 -2 Active tourer /grandtourer , forgot X2,X7

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by kozzi

It's nice to have space for 3+ vehicles. We are a one vehicle family of 5 in the city...thus the X3M is perfect for us. Parking downtown Brooklyn/NYC is a PITA and on-street/garage parking is a nightmare...not to mention the weather. There is no better fit for us...even at $80K+...it's a no-brainer bargin.

The Xs make money and they are ADDING more models, not removing them, which was the point of this discussion. Removing the 3 series except for the M3 defeats the purpose. BMW needs to compress their line-up but they are adding more models as some sales slipped in 2016. We will see how the new 5er does, because I think it looks amazing. Here is an interesting read on BMW sales. Take note of the big sellers from 2015 to 2016 and the issues with inventory.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...iscounts-rise/

Interesting article however it only 1/2 supports your statement on the X line. X5 and X4 sales are down...not up. Lower sales doesn't make money and with the discounts off MSRP, they aren't making that much per unit. Does BMW really need an X7? I doubt it? An X2? Not likely, especially since X1 sales are strong. 3 sales are down almost 30%. How does making the M3 the halo in the series given that data a bad thing and relying on the 4 to be the volume seller? They can easily add a '420' to the mix. Time will tell if the new 5 turns the slide around for that model. I like the looks of it for sure but it's a cruiser (M5 being the exception.)

[AntDX316]

Originally Posted by 48Laws

Remove a badge here, install skinnier tires, drop a few horses. Chits all the same anyway. It's not really revolutionary as all brands are redundant. Consumers are so confused. You have M and AMG models with zero horsepower increases.

But what about the gearing and MPG efficiency numbers?

[kozzi]

Originally Posted by CalCarNut

Interesting article however it only 1/2 supports your statement on the X line. X5 and X4 sales are down...not up. Lower sales doesn't make money and with the discounts off MSRP, they aren't making that much per unit. Does BMW really need an X7? I doubt it? An X2? Not likely, especially since X1 sales are strong. 3 sales are down almost 30%. How does making the M3 the halo in the series given that data a bad thing and relying on the 4 to be the volume seller? They can easily add a '420' to the mix. Time will tell if the new 5 turns the slide around for that model. I like the looks of it for sure but it's a cruiser (M5 being the exception.)

I agree sales are down but the point I was trying to make is the 3 series, the X5 and X3 are BMW's best sellers. However the reduction in models/variations occur...those 3 lines are not going away anytime soon.

Even with a 30% loss in sales yr/yr...the 3er still sells 30% more units than it's next closest vehicle...the X5/X3. X1 sales are insanely good right now. A well designed X2 coupe would kill the segment competition. Removing any line will not solve the problem of sluggish sales but a merger of vehicles with similar use should help. Does BMW really need an X7? I agree...probably not, but then again...I'm sure they would take a huge chunk of sales from Audi and Mercedes if they did.

M3 as the halo in the series is not a bad thing, but you have to have the M4 as well, along with the entry level models. They just need to keep one series a 2 door and the other a 4 door. Merge/morph/evolve/ an M3 with a 4GC and you will have a new M3 that would be even more of a killer than it already is, IMO.

[antzcrashing]

Ie they are ditching the 4 series, 5 series, z series, and replacing with x0 x2 x4 x7 x8 x9 x10

[MRV99]

Originally Posted by CalCarNut

Interesting article however it only 1/2 supports your statement on the X line. X5 and X4 sales are down...not up. Lower sales doesn't make money and with the discounts off MSRP, they aren't making that much per unit. Does BMW really need an X7? I doubt it? An X2? Not likely, especially since X1 sales are strong. 3 sales are down almost 30%. How does making the M3 the halo in the series given that data a bad thing and relying on the 4 to be the volume seller? They can easily add a '420' to the mix. Time will tell if the new 5 turns the slide around for that model. I like the looks of it for sure but it's a cruiser (M5 being the exception.)

Yea but why do people not realize that the "4" line is nothing but renamed "3" line. When did the 4 become so special..... the day you took 2 of the 3 body styles away from the "3" lineup. Still don't understand the desire the need to kill the 3 series.