New Ytest
Sign out
Bimmerpost
Login
BMW E39 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read  
Go Back   BMW E39 5-Series Forum | 5Post.com > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General BMW News and Cars Discussion

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-10-2017, 09:19 PM   #1
The Choosey begger
Libertarian
The Choosey begger's Avatar
United_States
71934
Rep
4,035
Posts

 
Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Sanctuary City

iTrader: (0)

Some New Bmws To Be Banned From DRIVER EDUCATION Track Days

http://www.bimmerfile.com/2017/04/09...me-track-days/
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      04-10-2017, 11:34 PM   #2
larryn
Lieutenant General
United_States
2146
Rep
10,176
Posts

 
Drives: '97 332ti, '21 X5 45e, '16 GT4
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (2)

GVC chapter knows their shit and run an awesome event. Unless teeh devices can be completely defeated, I 100% agree with them.

I went into a chassis malfunction on a right hand high speed and high-G sweeper and my car went into immediate limp mode with a car right on my tail. I have no idea how I didn't get tagged. These systems are not safe at HPDEs.
Appreciate 1
      04-10-2017, 11:43 PM   #3
G35POPPEDMYCHERRY
Banned
G35POPPEDMYCHERRY's Avatar
No_Country
4992
Rep
4,139
Posts

 
Drives: F80
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Philadelphia

iTrader: (1)

does this inrease my resale down the road lol
Appreciate 1
Chadmatic660.50
      04-10-2017, 11:50 PM   #4
roastbeef
Lieutenant General
roastbeef's Avatar
United_States
11572
Rep
12,713
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (4)

you can't turn that crap completely off? that doesn't make sense.
__________________
Instagram; @roastbeefmike
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2017, 01:45 AM   #5
xQx
General
Australia
903
Rep
1,003
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 BMW 135i (E88 N54 6AT)
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Sunshine Coast QLD Australia

iTrader: (0)

MISLEADING HEADLINE ALERT.

I was going to say that's utter bullshit. Drivers are far more unpredictable than any electronics. Especially the line "even if these systems may be disabled by the driver." THAT'S BULLSHIT!!!

But the headline is misleading. They're being banned from High Performance DRIVER EDUCATION sessions.

Fair enough a driver education company doesn't want to force its drivers to get behind the wheel of a car and throw it around a corner at the limit of it's physical ability (physics are predictable) with the added complication that the computer might intervene and decide it's in everyone's best interests that it emergency brakes one wheel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryn View Post
GVC chapter knows their shit and run an awesome event. Unless these devices can be completely defeated, I 100% agree with them.
But they're saying 'even if they CAN be completely defeated' - quote:

Quote:
Because there is so much uncertainty about how these systems behave in a variety of conditions, GVC have decided to ban all vehicles equipped with Automatic Emergency Braking and/or Lane Keeping Assistance systems (or their equivalent) for use in our HPDE events, even if these systems may be disabled by the driver.
So yeah, if they were banning the cars from the track because they're unpredictable, I'd be up in arms. But they're not. They're banning them from high performance driver education - where the instructor needs to be able to rely on the car responding in a particular way to a particular input - and a system that has the capability (and tendency) to apply full-breaking to one wheel out of four at a whim - would probably lead to the situation where an instructor has just instructed a learner race driver to spin his M4 into a guard rail. Even if I could see that it was disabled in NCS Expert, I'm not sure I'd have the confidence to risk someone else's car like that.

My own car, sure. And if you're banning me from a track because my car is unpredictable - f*ck you! I AM THE ONE WHO IS UNPREDICTABLE! ... but that's not what's being done here - despite the headline which insinuates it.
Appreciate 1
Elsabor67301.00
      04-11-2017, 09:00 AM   #6
otay
Major
otay's Avatar
United_States
826
Rep
1,342
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 335i
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Raleigh, NC

iTrader: (0)

Another perspective:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...its-trackdays/

My perspective: don't buy a car with that shite. Just a ordered a 340i with 6MT, but no Driver Assistance Plus package. It's the least automated version.
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2017, 09:50 AM   #7
AtlasM
Captain
AtlasM's Avatar
United_States
285
Rep
615
Posts

 
Drives: '11 E92 335xi 6MT
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Rockville, MD

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by otay View Post
Another perspective:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...its-trackdays/

My perspective: don't buy a car with that shite. Just a ordered a 340i with 6MT, but no Driver Assistance Plus package. It's the least automated version.
I'm shocked that an article written by Jack Baruth isn't full of unnecessarily fancy wording, because he so often loves to use a 5 dollar word when a 50 cent one will do.
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2017, 02:38 PM   #8
SD ///M4
///Multiple
SD ///M4's Avatar
United_States
2992
Rep
4,243
Posts

 
Drives: M4 Coupe | M3 | Z4M Roadster
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by larryn View Post
GVC chapter knows their shit and run an awesome event. Unless teeh devices can be completely defeated, I 100% agree with them.

I went into a chassis malfunction on a right hand high speed and high-G sweeper and my car went into immediate limp mode with a car right on my tail. I have no idea how I didn't get tagged. These systems are not safe at HPDEs.
My M4 went into limp mode at Buttonwillow back in October. But it wasn't from the Driver Assistance Plus Package that I have which includes Lane Departure Warning and Front Collision Alert, it was because I went on track with 3/8 of a tank of gas with a range of 43 miles and got fuel starvation coming off the last corner onto the straight (CCW). I noticed the fuel level as we were in line to enter the track, mentioned it to my instructor, and he said "You'll probably be fine". This was on the third session of the day, just after lunch, and it was the first time I had the car on track in an event with two 20 minute sessions in the morning and afternoon. Not yet having learned the fuel consumption during a track day with this car, I should have refueled at lunch time, something I did the next day and all weekend track sessions after that.

I've had 11 track days with my car in less than 11 months, including Nurburgring Nordschleife, Circuit Park Zandvoort, Spa Francorchamps, two separate weekends at Buttonwillow and two separate weekends at Laguna Seca. This package and those options never caused my car to "behave in unpredictable and undesirable ways on a racetrack."
__________________
The Coupe: 2016 M4 | Sakhir Orange | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | More | ED 5/13/16
The Sedan: 2018 M3 | San Marino Blue | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | ZCP | ED 7/18/18
The Roadster: 2006 Z4 | Interlagos Blue | Black Extended Nappa Leather | Carbon Leather Trim | Purchased 7/19/12

Appreciate 0
      04-11-2017, 03:07 PM   #9
mc3456
Banned
United_States
390
Rep
859
Posts

 
Drives: 2017 Alfa Giulia Quadrifoglio
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
Exclamation BMWCCA Track Day Ban

Since this was absent from the forum, I thought I would post it.

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/04/11/b...d-from-bmwcca/

Last edited by mc3456; 04-11-2017 at 06:12 PM..
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2017, 03:17 PM   #10
SD ///M4
///Multiple
SD ///M4's Avatar
United_States
2992
Rep
4,243
Posts

 
Drives: M4 Coupe | M3 | Z4M Roadster
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by xQx View Post
But the headline is misleading. They're being banned from High Performance DRIVER EDUCATION sessions.

Fair enough a driver education company doesn't want to force its drivers to get behind the wheel of a car and throw it around a corner at the limit of it's physical ability (physics are predictable) with the added complication that the computer might intervene and decide it's in everyone's best interests that it emergency brakes one wheel.
The ban was put in place by a particular chapter of the BMW Car Club of America for the HPDEs that they run at Watkins Glen. BMW CCA Chapters put on HPDEs (High Performance Driving Education) at local tracks. They are not a "driver education company". As it relates specifically to HPDEs, BMW CCA is a group of BMW enthusiasts who like to track their cars. The BMW CCA HPDE format is highly structured, with an instructor in the car, whose goal is to safely teach you how to drive your car on the track. Students are grouped based on experience and ability, with novices starting in D group, intermediate drivers in C and B groups, and the most experienced and skillful drivers in A group. There are classroom sessions usually before or after every track session, and the day is generally broken up into two 20 minute track sessions in the morning, a lunch break, and two 20 minute track sessions in the afternoon. Instructors are trained by other BMW CCA instructors in special Instructor Training Sessions and are usually people who have worked their way up from D group to A group (and sometimes an A+ group) and have demonstrated the skill and the aptitude to be able to teach new drivers.

What I described is in no way the same way a "driver education company" operates, which in the US, is a company that primarily teaches teenagers how to drive a car. Driver education companies have to be licensed, with licensed instructors, including passing an exam, with in-car training on how to teach new students how to drive.

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but in regards to driver education companies and HPDEs, they are two separate things.

I agree that current BMWs with Lane Departure Warning and Front Collision Avoidance, systems that can be defeated by simply pushing a button to turn them off, should not be banned from an HPDE because someone in charge doesn't understand how they work and how they can be defeated.
__________________
The Coupe: 2016 M4 | Sakhir Orange | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | More | ED 5/13/16
The Sedan: 2018 M3 | San Marino Blue | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | ZCP | ED 7/18/18
The Roadster: 2006 Z4 | Interlagos Blue | Black Extended Nappa Leather | Carbon Leather Trim | Purchased 7/19/12

Appreciate 0
      04-11-2017, 03:19 PM   #11
Falafel Combo
Banned
United_States
3767
Rep
6,673
Posts

 
Drives: X5 xDrive50i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: New England

iTrader: (3)

April fools joke?

Appreciate 0
      04-11-2017, 03:30 PM   #12
Pic18
First Lieutenant
United_States
304
Rep
351
Posts

 
Drives: 18' F80 Comp, Spec E46
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: NoVA

iTrader: (0)

Check the Track/autocross section as it is being discussed there.
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2017, 03:31 PM   #13
Bigsurprise
Private First Class
Bigsurprise's Avatar
United_States
100
Rep
113
Posts

 
Drives: '17 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Bay Area, Ca

iTrader: (0)

My salesman just told me that yesterday morning. I was surprised. Is this going to be a growing trend?
__________________
'18 Audi Q7 Prestige - APR Stage 2 single pulley
'19 Accord Hybrid
'17 M3 ZCP - DCT - BM3 Stage 1 gone
'18 M3 - 6mt - BPM Stage 1 gone
'15 335i gone
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2017, 03:51 PM   #14
SD ///M4
///Multiple
SD ///M4's Avatar
United_States
2992
Rep
4,243
Posts

 
Drives: M4 Coupe | M3 | Z4M Roadster
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
There is a longer thread on this in the F8X M3/M4 forum, in the Track subforum: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1372416

The latest update is that the GVC Chief Instructor replied with this statement when queried by e-mail by a member who was already signed up for an upcoming HPDE:
"I am painfully aware of the controversy this decision has caused. Rest assured that BMW's will be exempt from the ban, and an announcement to that effect will be sent out later today."
__________________
The Coupe: 2016 M4 | Sakhir Orange | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | More | ED 5/13/16
The Sedan: 2018 M3 | San Marino Blue | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | ZCP | ED 7/18/18
The Roadster: 2006 Z4 | Interlagos Blue | Black Extended Nappa Leather | Carbon Leather Trim | Purchased 7/19/12

Appreciate 0
      04-11-2017, 03:55 PM   #15
SD ///M4
///Multiple
SD ///M4's Avatar
United_States
2992
Rep
4,243
Posts

 
Drives: M4 Coupe | M3 | Z4M Roadster
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by mc3456 View Post
Since this was SO conspicuously absent from the forum, I thought I would post it...

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/04/11/b...d-from-bmwcca/
It wasn't conspicuously absent, it's being discussed in the appropriate Track subforum after being posted at 11:00 AM PDT: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1372416.

It was also posted on the General BMW yesterday at 7:19 PM PDT: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1373136
__________________
The Coupe: 2016 M4 | Sakhir Orange | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | More | ED 5/13/16
The Sedan: 2018 M3 | San Marino Blue | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | ZCP | ED 7/18/18
The Roadster: 2006 Z4 | Interlagos Blue | Black Extended Nappa Leather | Carbon Leather Trim | Purchased 7/19/12

Appreciate 0
      04-11-2017, 04:03 PM   #16
agent
Enlisted Member
agent's Avatar
United_States
3
Rep
35
Posts

 
Drives: 2014 535i M Sport
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Thompson's Station, TN

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD ///M4 View Post
I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but in regards to driver education companies and HPDEs, they are two separate things.
QFT.


The prudent course of action here is to wait and see what the BMW CCA (as in, the National Office) has to say before giving this story any more traction.
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2017, 04:07 PM   #17
agent
Enlisted Member
agent's Avatar
United_States
3
Rep
35
Posts

 
Drives: 2014 535i M Sport
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Thompson's Station, TN

iTrader: (0)

From the R&T article:

Quote:
BMW has issued the following comment to R&T regarding the Genesee Valley CCA's Banning of cars with driver aids on track:

The Genesee Valley BMW CCA Chapter created and published an unauthorized policy banning BMW's with Driver Aids from participating in HPDEs. The national BMW CCA office does not share their opinion and is discussing the issue with the chapter.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...its-trackdays/
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2017, 04:07 PM   #18
Flying Ace
Lieutenant General
Flying Ace's Avatar
4983
Rep
11,891
Posts

 
Drives: G05 45e, 997.1 & 991.1 GT3s
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: SF, CA

iTrader: (5)

Impact is pretty low right now. I believe they're talking about the level 2 automations that's coming into the new 7 series. The big one that's troublesome will be the lane keeping automation feature that'll actually turn the wheel for you...

The current Active Driving Assistant as part of the Driving Assistance Package Plus only has one of these features, the low-speed collision detection stop feature.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2017, 04:37 PM   #19
SD ///M4
///Multiple
SD ///M4's Avatar
United_States
2992
Rep
4,243
Posts

 
Drives: M4 Coupe | M3 | Z4M Roadster
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by agent View Post
From the R&T article:

BMW has issued the following comment to R&T regarding the Genesee Valley CCA's Banning of cars with driver aids on track:

The Genesee Valley BMW CCA Chapter created and published an unauthorized policy banning BMW's with Driver Aids from participating in HPDEs. The national BMW CCA office does not share their opinion and is discussing the issue with the chapter.
That must have been added today because it wasn't there when I read that article. I was aware that National was looking at it and I suspected that this was the case.

EDIT: Updated R&T article: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...aids-on-track/

Bottom line, issue resolved.
__________________
The Coupe: 2016 M4 | Sakhir Orange | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | More | ED 5/13/16
The Sedan: 2018 M3 | San Marino Blue | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | ZCP | ED 7/18/18
The Roadster: 2006 Z4 | Interlagos Blue | Black Extended Nappa Leather | Carbon Leather Trim | Purchased 7/19/12


Last edited by SD ///M4; 04-11-2017 at 05:02 PM..
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2017, 05:49 PM   #20
Invictus
Second Lieutenant
Invictus's Avatar
138
Rep
245
Posts

 
Drives: 2018 M4 (Ultimate Package)
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

If BMW starts making all it's cars with those features, the BMWCCA - if it doesn't adapt - will wither like a mean old man, refusing to recognize the future.

Some other club that allows manual adjustment of those features will come along. And that other club will be big, famous and important.

BMWCCA will be an "oldies" BMW club with vanishing relevance.
__________________
2018 M4 MGM/SO
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2017, 06:15 PM   #21
Professor///M
Brigadier General
Professor///M's Avatar
No_Country
817
Rep
3,341
Posts

 
Drives: 2022 M3, 2022 X5 40i;
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Northeast

iTrader: (5)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by mc3456 View Post
Since this was absent from the forum, I thought I would post it.

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/04/11/b...d-from-bmwcca/

That's weird considering they are features that may be easily shut off... simply push buttons. The X5 has a more complicated screen to deactivate these features, but ours are super simple.
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2017, 06:49 PM   #22
SD ///M4
///Multiple
SD ///M4's Avatar
United_States
2992
Rep
4,243
Posts

 
Drives: M4 Coupe | M3 | Z4M Roadster
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Read the thread in the Track subforum.

Updated R&T article: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...aids-on-track/

Issue resolved.
__________________
The Coupe: 2016 M4 | Sakhir Orange | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | More | ED 5/13/16
The Sedan: 2018 M3 | San Marino Blue | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | ZCP | ED 7/18/18
The Roadster: 2006 Z4 | Interlagos Blue | Black Extended Nappa Leather | Carbon Leather Trim | Purchased 7/19/12


Last edited by SD ///M4; 04-11-2017 at 07:05 PM..
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:31 PM.




5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST