[BruinMan]

I appreciate the information. I understand much more.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

Except for some, X5 represents a boring family car with 2 kids car seats in 2nd row . so we still want to optimize for the OPex, so the saving can be applied to other fun car relative activities

I think the x5 is too small for that. X5 is the "I have one kid or no kids and want an SUV but also kinda wanted a sports sedan". X7, sure, family car. X5 is just kinda small for that

IMO, a PHEV or EV that costs more for energy than a gasser makes no sense. I am all about total Op Ex, once the requirements are met.

We considered the XC90 T8 recharge whatever they're calling it PHEV. Wife liked the looks a lot. I didn't trust it reliability wise. I also never really broke down our energy costs of PHEV vs gas, but suspect we typically don't drive enough for a ROI on any sort of EV.

Soapbox rant here, but whoever OK'd the X7 without a PHEV option should be smacked in the face with a dead fish. Genuinely the ideal application for it.

[Aussiejem]

I will utilise solar to charge during the day or via the Tesla battery

[Ruyseart]

Where I live, price of kWh is about 0,14 eur, and gas is somewhere between 1,6 and 1,8 eur/liter.
Slightly depending on what gas fuel consumption you take for the math, I'm assuming 10l/100km, you get aprox. half of the price to drive on electric than on gas, so that works for me so far.
If electricity prices go up in the future, which I guess will be the case, diff would not be that important

[LuckyBrand]

It's almost inevitable that electric prices will continue to rise. Our household has seen the rates rise decently the last few years. The continued taxing of the grid will require investment and expansion. Will government eventually as well start taxing for roads etc? Will gas start to fall as the demand lowers in say 10 years or will gas rise so high that you will make the switch to electric? So many unknowns in the future of fuels. The one common is everyone wants a piece of the pie, and the consumer usually doesn't fare well in these instances.

Back about 15 years ago or so. When home heating prices started getting high and it was all about energy tax credits we were on propane for our furnace. It got really expensive. Well the furnace took a dump so we decided for the long term we would go geothermal because propane was so high. In the long run we made the right choice with tax credits etc. but 3 to 5 years later propane prices came way down to what they were years earlier. Remember this was also the time when regular gas around me was $4.50 a gallon and everyone went out and bought 4 cylinder cars only to have gas well under $3 a gallon just a couple years later.

Moral of the story? Sometimes you just don't know what is going to happen in the future of anything. You just have to make the choice that best fits what you want currently and let the cards play out. Because just when you think you have a leg up on all of this, they let you know you don't.

[FastLaneJB]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Soapbox rant here, but whoever OK'd the X7 without a PHEV option should be smacked in the face with a dead fish. Genuinely the ideal application for it.

It's a packaging problem. Same reason you can get the X5 with 3 rows of seats but not with the PHEV. The battery is in the boot space which is where the rear seats and peoples legs need to go in a 3 row.

Volvo solved this in an interesting way on the XC90 by putting the batteries in the transmission tunnel. It's a 4 wheel drive car some of the time. The eMotor can only drive the rear wheels and the petrol motor can only drive the front wheels, they aren't connected. So put it in EV mode only, it's rear wheel drive only for instance. Battery completely flat (Never normally happens of course) then with petrol it's front wheel drive only. Does give them space for the rear seats though because the battery is no longer in the way.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by LuckyBrand

Moral of the story? Sometimes you just don't know what is going to happen in the future of anything. You just have to make the choice that best fits what you want currently and let the cards play out. Because just when you think you have a leg up on all of this, they let you know you don't.

Excellent advice.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by LuckyBrand

It's almost inevitable that electric prices will continue to rise. Our household has seen the rates rise decently the last few years. The continued taxing of the grid will require investment and expansion. Will government eventually as well start taxing for roads etc? Will gas start to fall as the demand lowers in say 10 years or will gas rise so high that you will make the switch to electric? So many unknowns in the future of fuels. The one common is everyone wants a piece of the pie, and the consumer usually doesn't fare well in these instances.

Back about 15 years ago or so. When home heating prices started getting high and it was all about energy tax credits we were on propane for our furnace. It got really expensive. Well the furnace took a dump so we decided for the long term we would go geothermal because propane was so high. In the long run we made the right choice with tax credits etc. but 3 to 5 years later propane prices came way down to what they were years earlier. Remember this was also the time when regular gas around me was $4.50 a gallon and everyone went out and bought 4 cylinder cars only to have gas well under $3 a gallon just a couple years later.

Moral of the story? Sometimes you just don't know what is going to happen in the future of anything. You just have to make the choice that best fits what you want currently and let the cards play out. Because just when you think you have a leg up on all of this, they let you know you don't.

We got new super expensive low e hurricane windows on our house. Supposedly a big electricity savings. I agine my wife's reaction when our bill went up $100 (30%) since the year prior. She was pissed. Imagine her reaction when she saw we used 40% less electricity than the year before and STILL paid that much more. A lot of it is inflation, a lot is that FL has endless new demand, but if it continues it's going to be economically unviable to have an EV, even charging at home, unless you live in a place that taxes gasoline off the road . Once they do that, they will of course start taxing EVs to make up the shortfall. With big government, it's a lose-lose always, lol.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by FastLaneJB

It's a packaging problem. Same reason you can get the X5 with 3 rows of seats but not with the PHEV. The battery is in the boot space which is where the rear seats and peoples legs need to go in a 3 row.

Volvo solved this in an interesting way on the XC90 by putting the batteries in the transmission tunnel. It's a 4 wheel drive car some of the time. The eMotor can only drive the rear wheels and the petrol motor can only drive the front wheels, they aren't connected. So put it in EV mode only, it's rear wheel drive only for instance. Battery completely flat (Never normally happens of course) then with petrol it's front wheel drive only. Does give them space for the rear seats though because the battery is no longer in the way.

Volvo's system is neat, but kinda not ideal. I kinda felt like they needed more EV power on the rear dynamically, not that Volvo cared about that. I also had zero trust in their turbo turbo supercharged 4cylinder of crap. If it wasn't for dubious Chinese wonership, widely recognized terrible reliability, an incredibly complex and problematic powertrain, and pathetic towing capacity, we would have probably given it a strong consideration. The dynamics don't really matter that much as the family hauler. Our expedition we got instead certainly isn't some dynamic wonder, lol.

That said, there's no reason when designing the X7 they couldn't have found space. Shrink the 3rd row height some and all it stadium seating, lengthen it by a foot (it needs that anyways), they had a TON of options, and it's not like X7 was designed before PHEVs were a thing.

In my eyes, it's poor product planning pure and simple. Fishes to the face for everyone involved in that screw up.

[LuckyBrand]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

We got new super expensive low e hurricane windows on our house. Supposedly a big electricity savings. I agine my wife's reaction when our bill went up $100 (30%) since the year prior. She was pissed. Imagine her reaction when she saw we used 40% less electricity than the year before and STILL paid that much more. A lot of it is inflation, a lot is that FL has endless new demand, but if it continues it's going to be economically unviable to have an EV, even charging at home, unless you live in a place that taxes gasoline off the road . Once they do that, they will of course start taxing EVs to make up the shortfall. With big government, it's a lose-lose always, lol.

Same with us. We use less electricity than we used to and our bill is quite a bit higher now since they keep raising rates. Doesn't matter how much you put into energy savings. In the end it'll still cost more. Not much you can do.

[jad03060]

NH decided this year to add a registration fee to EV and PHEV vehicles to offset the fact that they don’t get as much money from gasoline sales for the roads and bridges. It’s not much, but it’s real. There’s been talk about charging people a per mile fee rather than relying on the gas tax from the sales of gasoline, but that brings its own costs to administer it, and if not national, how would you be fair about it if most of your travels were in different states that didn’t participate…double taxation.

Building a new solar array is cheaper per watt than building a new gas-fired generation plant, but then you have the situation where the output isn’t available 24/7. Batteries can help, but aren’t inexpensive, but there are other novel energy storage systems being implemented…just not in big quantities leaving us still needing ‘peaker’ plants to fill in the gaps.

[FastLaneJB]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Volvo's system is neat, but kinda not ideal. I kinda felt like they needed more EV power on the rear dynamically, not that Volvo cared about that. I also had zero trust in their turbo turbo supercharged 4cylinder of crap. If it wasn't for dubious Chinese wonership, widely recognized terrible reliability, an incredibly complex and problematic powertrain, and pathetic towing capacity, we would have probably given it a strong consideration. The dynamics don't really matter that much as the family hauler. Our expedition we got instead certainly isn't some dynamic wonder, lol.

That said, there's no reason when designing the X7 they couldn't have found space. Shrink the 3rd row height some and all it stadium seating, lengthen it by a foot (it needs that anyways), they had a TON of options, and it's not like X7 was designed before PHEVs were a thing.

In my eyes, it's poor product planning pure and simple. Fishes to the face for everyone involved in that screw up.

There's really not a lot of PHEV three row cars. The new Range Rover and Defender cannot be had as a PHEV with 3 rows either. Mercedes don't offer one. Other than maybe the Volvo and a Kia, not sure I can even think of another one.

They cannot really make the car longer if they want to still be able to sell it in Europe, it's already borderline too big as it is. You need a really large battery to make it worthwhile on a car this size, where do you propose they stick it?

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by jad03060

NH decided this year to add a registration fee to EV and PHEV vehicles to offset the fact that they don’t get as much money from gasoline sales for the roads and bridges. It’s not much, but it’s real. There’s been talk about charging people a per mile fee rather than relying on the gas tax from the sales of gasoline, but that brings its own costs to administer it, and if not national, how would you be fair about it if most of your travels were in different states that didn’t participate…double taxation.

Building a new solar array is cheaper per watt than building a new gas-fired generation plant, but then you have the situation where the output isn’t available 24/7. Batteries can help, but aren’t inexpensive, but there are other novel energy storage systems being implemented…just not in big quantities leaving us still needing ‘peaker’ plants to fill in the gaps.

I think just paying by the mile and.leaving it at that is the best path. Don't bring "be fair about it" in the conversation with govt, it's never fair, it's what they decide is "fair".

Plus if you push too much on that then they'll just mandate gps trackers on all new cars to track where you drive for taxation purposes, and not any other benefit of a gos tracker except sharing it with any agency you've run afoul of.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I think the x5 is too small for that. X5 is the "I have one kid or no kids and want an SUV but also kinda wanted a sports sedan". X7, sure, family car. X5 is just kinda small for that

IMO, a PHEV or EV that costs more for energy than a gasser makes no sense. I am all about total Op Ex, once the requirements are met.

We considered the XC90 T8 recharge whatever they're calling it PHEV. Wife liked the looks a lot. I didn't trust it reliability wise. I also never really broke down our energy costs of PHEV vs gas, but suspect we typically don't drive enough for a ROI on any sort of EV.

Soapbox rant here, but whoever OK'd the X7 without a PHEV option should be smacked in the face with a dead fish. Genuinely the ideal application for it.

I am 100% with you in both size and OpEx.

X5 so far is not so satisfactory for being a family car in a sense that my parents 2004 CRV has more leg rooms for comfort for both 1st and 2nd row. We are thinking about buying either a Sienna or Pacifica as family car, then going back to our coupe and sedan for commuting and sending kids to daycare school.

As for cost, the primary reason for us to buy MY22, was because 45e was only $250 more than 40i, and then we still get $7500 off on top of thst. So 45e was a good $7000ish cheaper to acquire back then.

Also the thought of getting free charging at work for M-F, this was a wishing thinking. Now, unless we get to off before 8:45am, no chance is getting charging stall for Tu-Thu. M and F, we get fair chance, but how much actually saved for the effort putting in???

Did i regret buying 45e? Absolutely no. I save $7000 at acquisition. Will I buy PHEV if I need to pay significant more for it, absolutely no either. No way I will choose 50e over 40i today.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by Aussiejem

I will utilise solar to charge during the day or via the Tesla battery

Keep in mind, solar isn’t free. You basically prepaid about 7-10 years of electricity bill up front, and you get “free electricity” for about 25 years. Until you break even, you are paying more. Oh and the 7-10 break even period is assuming the system is designed properly. Most solar contractors, especially the large ones, don’t even know how to do that.

I just designed and installed my own solar system for my home after getting quote from 8-10 contractors. Most just want to sell me stuff to max out my budget without even know why I need this or that. The worst being Sunrun, one is the largest in my area. Tesla is cheapest but also offer the lowest quality installation hardware, installation method and inverter spec. Finally, I was like fck it, I will DIY. Effort is large for home owner, but cost is typically 1/3, because 2/3 of contractor price is labor related.

[eelnoraa]

Originally Posted by FastLaneJB

It's a packaging problem. Same reason you can get the X5 with 3 rows of seats but not with the PHEV. The battery is in the boot space which is where the rear seats and peoples legs need to go in a 3 row.

Volvo solved this in an interesting way on the XC90 by putting the batteries in the transmission tunnel. It's a 4 wheel drive car some of the time. The eMotor can only drive the rear wheels and the petrol motor can only drive the front wheels, they aren't connected. So put it in EV mode only, it's rear wheel drive only for instance. Battery completely flat (Never normally happens of course) then with petrol it's front wheel drive only. Does give them space for the rear seats though because the battery is no longer in the way.

Just one technical correction, 45e/50e don’t have battery in boot or trunk at all. Battery, a small portion is under 2nd row floor and majority portion is under 2nd row seat cushion. It is the gas tank that is relocated to trunk into.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by FastLaneJB

There's really not a lot of PHEV three row cars. The new Range Rover and Defender cannot be had as a PHEV with 3 rows either. Mercedes don't offer one. Other than maybe the Volvo and a Kia, not sure I can even think of another one.

They cannot really make the car longer if they want to still be able to sell it in Europe, it's already borderline too big as it is. You need a really large battery to make it worthwhile on a car this size, where do you propose they stick it?

You can get a PHEV Lexus TX and Toyota Grand Highlander (possibly the not so grand version too?). Ford had a PHEV explorer and Lincoln aviator as well. Mazda CX90 also and I think there a version of the Mitsubishi outlander as well? Plus who knows howamy others in the pipeline.

The length is the age old problem. Too small for US, or too big for Europe? I suspect that X7 sells more in the US, so the answer is you make the X7 bigger. It's a good bit smaller than TX and GLS, which has done very well for Mercedes.

I think you underestimate how big the battery needs to be. 20-30 miles of range is probably fine. Just enough to get the kids to and from school, ya know?

[Aussiejem]

Eelnora, great work! Yes, we didn't go with Tesla for anything other than the battery and wall mounted plug in (for our Model Y). We got a good 12kw system, but yes, the initial capital outlay needs to be plugged into calculations for energy costs.

[Shareandenjoy]

Bah, after having had 45e for 6 months, i was truly wondering (apologize for my US and UK friends for using the beautiful metric system) why:

- I have to carry an additional 300Kgs for batteries around, just to get 70Kms of electric range. Handling is very different from 40i.
- Paying 10K to 15K EUR more to purchase the car.
- When using public rechargers, the cost/km with electric is higher than the gasoline one.
- When Electric range is over, I have to drive a thirsty (for EU standards) 3.0 twin turbo gasoline engine, with 6/7Km liter range with a 2.4 Tons elephant to carry around. This is less of a problem in USA as you are used to those kind of gasoline engines and costs, but for Europe this very unusual.
- I have to wait 6 hours to charge the car (yes, I know this has improved on 50e).
- You have to own solar panels and charger in the garage, not always possibile if you live in a condo.
- Yes, there are some small benefits, like not paying charge in pollution areas...but not that much.

So, bottom line: for EU, a 3.0 diesel engine is still the best choice overall.

...and when you do the math for the cost / mile in Excel, remember to factor in the extra cost for purchasing the car are the cost of fuel when not driving in electric mode.

Just my humble view on why you have to pay 120K EUR, get a much heavier car and have a very short electric range...and again, USA vs EUR makes a big difference I know.

[FastMarkA]

Remember when candy bars were $0.10? (I don't, but that's what my grandparents said... )

Everything gets more expensive with time.

If you want to impress your inner bean counter, neither the 40i nor the 50e will earn any accolades. Toyota and Nissan make cars that do more and cost much less than an X5.

I'd still get the 50e since I cannot stand going to the gas station.

[BlkGS]

Can't stand going to the gas station? Wait do people make trips especially to get gas? I just get gas at the grocery store I already have to go to...

[mscot]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

If it wasn't for dubious Chinese wonership, widely recognized terrible reliability, an incredibly complex and problematic powertrain, and pathetic towing capacity....

For me the Chinese ownership was enough to skip it, then throw in the 4Cyl and weird drivetrain system and I was completely out.